Personally I think not enough attention is paid to how community atomization and sprawl, and the near elimination of the third place in America, has fostered a crisis of loneliness.
Young men chronically have no outlets through which they can socially interact with women. The only place it happened was at school and maybe some extracurriculars if they were especially social.
Society unconsciously brushes this crisis off with "well the real friends that matter are the ones you make in college anyways!" Ignoring how that doesn't help guys that don't have higher study in their life plan, or the fact that learning to properly socialize is kinda the point of those grade school friends you'll probably lose touch with in adulthood.
All that was the case even BEFORE the pandemic hit, now even school's been atomized, granted, rightfully so in the circumstances, with classes going virtual and leaving students in a situation where the Internet is the only place left in the world where they can learn any social skills, and that's where the damned redcaps and chuds swoop in to prey on their insecurities.
That "college friends" line always bugged me. I keep in closer touch with my good high school friends then I do with my old college friends.
College is for networking, if you go to that kind of school. Yeah, you can definitely make good friends in College, but I also made better friends in high school.
I'm the exact opposite. I don't keep in touch with anyone from below college outside of the odd text once or twice a year.
I only have Internet friends :(
I’ll be your internet friend. How’s the weekend going?
Came here to say something similar. Loneliness is the cancer eating our society. I used to feel terribly lonely, even with incredible close friends, around holidays. That translated into feeling lonely much of the time because I was aware there was no one at those special times. Side note: never been an incel or misogynist.
Also the fact that most clubs in colleges today are segregated
Wait what?
By gender, I assume.
well in my uni, most of the normal clubs (ie - acm) had womens versions which didn't allow men. Additionally most of the clubs at my school were actually segregated by race/nationality/religion (ie - african students union, korean christian association, muslim student assocation, society of hispanic engineers, etc.). So there were only a few clubs I was actually allowed to join and it they were basically all white males despite not being exclusive like the other ones. Schools fund these clubs so that they can claim they're supporting diversity and inclusion and sure they're supporting minority communities, but at the same time I don't think the results are what they were hoping.
I always thought segregated clubs were a bad thing. Diversity and inclusion my ass, that's the opposite of what they're doing.
You can make friends anywhere. Many people make them in situations like high school or college but there are other options like church, work, online, clubs, hobbies, bars, etc.
It seems like a stretch to blame society because specific people have poor social skills and can't attract a mate or friends. Putting them in social situations more common of the past doesn't mean they'd have any better luck. They lack skills that take trial and error and lots of practice that most other people learn at a young age. I know a couple of guys that could be considered incels and they lack self awareness, refuse to listen to advice, and spend nearly all their time playing games online. If they actively choose not to work at improving their deficiencies, whose fault is that? If someone is morbidly obese yet refuses to eat healthier and instead goes out to McDonald's for every meal, would you say the same thing? At the end of the day you have to take some responsibility for the situations that you find yourself stuck in. That's not to say these people deserve it, but we all have our own challenges in life that we must overcome.
Sometimes people mix up the order of things and thus the cause and effect. For instance, with some medical issues, doctors have thought things like "oh, you went on this extreme diet, then you lost weight and had gastric issues". No, I lost weight and had gastric issues, so I went on an extreme diet. In this case, i think the misogyny precedes lack of success at finding a partner. It can also be a situation of giving up too soon. For me, middle school and high school were so horrible in various ways that i assumed I was 100% doomed - I didn't realize that life after 20 is very different. It still has high school social aspects, but it's a lot better in many ways.
That's not what this link says
Yeah, i drink wine all day and can't actually read.
Probably not the best thing to do if you have gastric issues.
Yeah, I don't think it's recommended in general.
Please teach me how to make the best out of my 20s!
If I was to redo my 20s. What worked was going to university in my mid 20s. I was able to finish it much quicker and made some close friends during by that time as well as set my career path going. What I wish I had done was move away from the city I grew up in. I only did it in my late 20s and I regret not doing it sooner.
Have lots of social interactions. It’s valuable. Set yourself up career wise. Always check to know you haven’t hit a ceiling where you’re working. Exercise and travel lots would be my key takeaways.
Always check to know you haven’t hit a ceiling where you’re working
Disagree. Sometimes its perfectly fine to hit a ceiling if you are comfortable where you are and are withing comfortable means. This always look for better is exhausting, and 100% guarantees you will never like your job.
To be clear, I am NOT advocating that people should stay in dead end job they hate. Do not under any circumstance willingly stay at a job you hate. you only get one life, dont make it about work or money.
I think it’s important in your 20s to push yourself and know where your ambitions and priorities lie. Checking if your work is a dead end can also signify wherever you’re growing in your skill sets too. What you don’t want is suddenly needing to push yourself later in life having to compete with people younger and hungrier than you. Try young and try hard will help minimise regret later.
Great advice, thanks!
Same here. I finished my BA at 27 and I went on to take an MA and then a PhD 10 years later.
One more piece of advice: don't do drugs.
Eh I'd say experiment if you want, but be responsible about it. Don't let it consume your life or have priority over family, friends, work, etc. If you're going to party, best to get it out of your system when you're young, when consequences are less impactful.
Problem with this is, when you realize it's not fun anymore you're sometimes too down the rabbit hole.
I did pot only but I wasted 5 years to stupidity and paranoia.
When you're a teenager you're not always aware of your mental health issues.
How did going to uni in your 20s instead of straight out of high school affect your ability to socialize? Did it introduce any sort of unique struggles or problems, and if so, how did you deal with them?
I feel like going straight after high school allows you to naturally join all the parties and clubs. Which will definitely help with socialising. But I’m not a party guy so I might’ve felt left out and alone anyway.
Going later I made friends with mostly people in their mid 20s too. Which was good because we were more focused on graduating so it was more productive. The friendships I made felt tight and not a flash in a pan or party based. But that really depends on the people you meet.
I think it’s still worth going to uni straight after high school unless you have a good reason not to. What I can say is deciding to go later for career prospects is also great and not too late at all.
Don't have kids until your 30s.
And don't feel the need to have kids in your 30s either.
Then enjoy your fourties while the parents get ground down by the unreasonable burdens of raising kids.
Let go of the small things and just be. It's not exactly "don't give a fuck," but it's close. Aim for meeting people and going out to do things, not necessarily specific people or popular things, just good people and things that are fun for you outside of the house. Realize you will grow and change a lot in your 20s, and so will everyone around you; so if you have a huge crush on someone your age that doesn't like you back that way, then tell yourself you might really dislike them in 5 years so it's not a big loss if they don't like you now. It's also OK to let friends go if you have an attraction to them that isn't returned, because you have to protect your mental health. It's OK to not drink or do drugs, but it's also OK to drink and do drugs… just don't do either to extremes and don't be extreme about not doing drugs/alcohol. Try joining clubs for different things, even things you've never done. Realize most people don't have things figured out in their 20s and that you can make mistakes. Make mistakes. Be well-rounded. It's cool to play video games and DnD, but don't JUST do that (especially if you want to meet women). Get clothes that fit properly, not necessarily expensive or cool clothes. A completely plain t-shirt that fits well (go to Target and buy every color of their Goodfellow everywhere V-neck T for $8 each) plus a pair of jeans that aren't baggy and some Adidas shoes is an outfit you can wear everyday that will look good and is so comfortable.
really depends on the drug imo… It is like playing the lottery… I know people who have permanent health issues (ie - halucinations) now as a result of cannabis and my father died of an OD and got started on hard drugs via a laced joint. I'm not going to be an asshole about it but I really wouldn't recommend doing drugs.
On the other hand, I know plenty of people who get high daily and hold down jobs, families, etc without issue. We've all got andecdotes, they mean nothing compared to actual hard data.
One main thing to remember…there is no such thing as too many credit cards. 30's you will be rich and able to take care of that.
You could join the AirForce. Get a degree or two out of it and get to travel some. 4 years isn't a terrible commitment. I'd avoid the navy, army, or Marines tho, unless you also want to aim for medical disability lol
Don't serve the evil empire
Worked out ok for me
I was 21 when I joined up. Got my batchelors, saw the world, met some people, did some things. Now I'm settled where I want doing the career I want. I credit the navy with a lot of the growing up/maturing I did.
So it turns out that it's not a lack of women giving them a bad attitude - it's their bad attitude giving them a lack of women. Who'd have thought.
So if I understand correctly, the study suggests the driving factor might well be longing for social dominance and sociopathic traits and not necessarily sexual frustration.
My theory that a rising number of men end up being Incels is that it's getting harder and harder for young men to make any experience with women at all.
Online and offline dating became toxic af which leads to frustration. This frustration opens the door for people like Andrew Tate.
The article from OP says the most misogynistic men are ironically the ones which get laid the most. I'd put Andrew Tate into this category.
Frustration leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to Tate
Why do you suppose dating is worse now? I will disagree any time and place with people who say online dating is awful. The alternative – randomly hitting on people and hoping a million unknowable factors all line up – is far worse.
You are joking right? Online dating is even worse than offline dating.
First of all there are far more men using online dating than women.
Second men like and Text way to many women which leads women's inboxes to be overfilled.
Most of the few available women only want the top 15% of the men.
Then the dead profiles aka. only their Instagram username tagged in bio.
And there are also those who chat with you for a few days and then try to sell their adult content to you or want you to invest in crypto XY.
I've met my gf on a dating platform 5 years ago and the online dating situation was bad then already. I occasionally saw the posts in r/tinder and oh boy has that thing become a shitshow since then.
Idk I'm a married dude nearing 40 who is on dating sites a fair amount (it's cool so is my wife), and I'm a pretty average guy all-around, and it doesn't seem like this hellscape you paint it as. I have everything possible stacked against me for online dating, and I consistently get what I'm looking for.
Yeah there are lots of crazies, but that's because crazy people exist, and you'd run into them in more traditional dating too. Check out any romcom from the 90s and there'll likely be a montage of crazies.
I am glad that online dating works out for you my friend. Don't wanna offend you but we are talking about young people. you turning 40 means you are middle aged. The customers of Tate and similar assholes are mostly under 30 years.
I regularly speak with women in their late 20s. My cutoff is 26 so I avoid people my daughter knows.
If you're on sites specializing in ENM that's probably why, niche enough that the bots and toxic algo practices haven't descended upon them yet
If there are ENM sites with people on them I'd love a link. I mainly stick to Tinder and Bumble because Feeld hasn't been adopted in my area.
Very open to suggestions tho.
Feeld has been really good for me compared to other apps. Im a relatively vanilla fellow but the culture around communication is stronger there and the results have been good. And Ive only been using it for single dating so far.
Hope it rolls out for you soon because it has been a refreshing experience
I really like Feeld, it's just that there's near-zero adoption here. I keep semi-active on it in the hopes the user number keeps growing tho!
Bloom is what I use right now
I'll check it out!
So you are a success story yourself for online dating, but because you see the most insane experiences from it getting posted on social media, it's obviously now irredeemable…? Do you not have any self awareness?
it's not a "success story". I've experienced ALOT of bad stuff before my gf messaged me. I've been on multiple dating platforms and all of them were toxic af. I was deleting my accounts while my gf texted me.
Having bad experiences doesn't erase the fact that you got a long term girlfriend from using online dating. That is still what happened. Unless you want to break up with your girlfriend right now, denying it's a success story is denying reality.
Like are you people really old or what? Everyone who can't stfu about how bad online dating is always confuses me.
I guess i have to go a little more into detail to make you understand. I've been using online dating from age 16-20 and made only bad expirences. That's why I was deleting all of my accounts. my girlfriend was the first woman who messaged me first and I immediately told her that I am deleting my account so we have to stay connected via WhatsApp. is it a success that I found a long term girlfriend? Yes Does it erase the shitload of bad stuff I experienced in the 4 years before her message? no.
It's a fact that online dating is toxic. Both Bumble and Tinder released statistics which show that women want the top 15% of men. Most men end up with single digit likes, if they even get any. Women's inboxes on the other hand explode from unsolicited wiener pics or similar unwanted messages.
It isn't a "fact". The only fact you seem intent on ignoring is that people suck in general which isn't a reflection on how tOxIC apps are. You found someone who doesn't suck but we obviously can't credit to the existence of an app for that, but we sure can blame all the people sucking on it right? Such a silly hill to die on.
Also I don't think any dating site has allowed sending pictures for a while, so no dick pics wouldn't really be an issue.
I'm average looking but still managed to get dozens of dates. Rejection sucks and the apps give you a lot of that but they also, again, demonstrably, give us long term relationships. It's a FACT. An actual FACT. Subjective experiences are not facts, however us both having girlfriends right now is. Now tell me again how that doesn't count for literally anything because women usually don't message us back.
Why do you suppose dating is worse now?
Globalization and social media
Just read the articles on Tinder, it's a sad affair for the not attractive man
When all men you had access to where the village boys you won't be that picky. Once the whole world can sext you, why settle for the ok dude that looks nice in a suit if you squint enough?
I don't need to read articles, I have years of actual first hand experience
It goes both ways for "not attractive" women as well.
This is purely anecdotal, but all of the "not attractive" men I have known who complain there's no women online for them are only talking about women who are more attractive than them. The ones who don't complain have realistic standards and can find matches. It also tends to help they don't have s shit attitude.
But it's still a numbers game. More attractive people get more matches, but that doesn't mean those are quality matches. I guess if all you're looking for is casual sex it makes a difference.
It goes both ways for “not attractive” women as well
It does not, unless you mean "grotesquely not attractive"? Just read the articles, women are ruthless when rating men, so even "average" men can't get "average", or less-than, women (online dating)
But it’s still a numbers game
You are underestimating the numbers by too much
most online dating apps want you to engage in casual sex and not find success because then you'll keep coming back. TInder, Bumble, etc. are first and foremost hookup apps and it's important to remember that.
It's been my experience that meeting people in person works and online dating just doesn't. I'm not saying all the female profiles on dating sites are fakes generated by the site to tempt men into subscribing, but I definitely am saying that if they were, my experience wouldn't have been different.
the entire concept of an incel did not exist until tinder came about. Read the article and paper. Hookup apps promote the type of promiscuous/chad behavior that incels want and fail to achieve … thus causing their frustration
No because sexual frustration is just being inevitable outcome of their personality. This is only a revelation to people who never met them.
Most incels seem to lean pretty politically conservative, that's where I figure it comes from.
Me trying to put politics into every post I see:
Sexual frustration comes from mysgonstic talking points that women, rightfully, keep their distance from. Why would I want to sleep with someone who is demeaning and insulting to me? 😂
It also comes from not being able to communicate to a potential partner how you would like to climax. Likely out of embarrassment or shame.
Also you don't have to do shit for anyone that insults you.
very well put; vegan btw…
Thank you!
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Id be misogynistic as fuuuuuck.
If that pickle is supposed to represent incels, they should have used a baby dill instead.
haha smol peen funi
My running theory is most of these people are queer to some degree. They end up hating women because they don't have the communication skills to express what they want out of a relationship. When they become unfulfilled then they blame it on the person they think is supposed to be fulfilling them. Sorry boys if you want your SO to peg and domme you you need to tell them.
You don't need to be queer to enjoy being dominated by a woman. Kink takes all sexual attractions and genders, as long as everyone is consenting.
That could be a cute romance story. Two incels bond over hating women and SJWs. They get together to play Valorant or browse 4chan in bed together while posting gore. They turn to each other and speak in green text and kiss.
It really would(n't) be but that takes some self awareness and reflection many of them simply don't have the skills to achieve. I'd assume once you have achieved that amount of self awareness you stop hating women but maybe I'm being hopeful.
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While I’ve experienced some pretty horrible misogyny from some gay men, I don’t think this is even close to being accurate (and is one more way to make queer people the enemy). There are plenty of straight men who hate women but still want to fuck them. Those things can coexist, unfortunately.
They can, unfortunately. Oof wasn’t my intention to make queer people the enemy in any form.
But I’ve known queer cis men to be misogynistic, granted not to Andrew Tates degree, because they were embarrassed to express their sexual desires.
So this very well could be me with a hammer looking for a nail.
