A pro-Palestinian rally Sunday in Times Square endorsed by the city chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America ensnared prominent party members amid widespread condemnation of the event.
Gov. Kathy Hochul and other leading Democrats blasted the rally as “abhorrent and morally repugnant” and drew a dividing line with far-left members of the party — including New York Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Jamaal Bowman, who denounced the attacks and called for a ceasefire but didn’t take a stand on the rally.
“I condemn Hamas’ attack in the strongest possible terms,” Ocasio-Cortez said in a statement. “No child and family should ever endure this kind of violence and fear, and this violence will not solve the ongoing oppression and occupation in the region. An immediate ceasefire and de-escalation is urgently needed to save lives.”
Very telling that people seem to confuse terrorists mass-murdering civilians with the struggle of the Palestinian people.
Yep and not wanting Palestinians to die anymore means you hate the Jews. The gaslight is spooky.
I agree with the statement that you are making, but, if I may be pedantic for just a moment, the way that your example was worded is not an example of gaslighting; it is actually an example of something called "affirming the disjunct".
I appreciate the identification of the fallacy.
That said, the use of fallacious arguments is the tool by which one gaslights. They aren't mutually exclusive.
When you use fallacies intentionally to convince someone that their basic and true point is wrong… That's a form of gaslight.
The term doesn't need to only apply to relationships. Political gaslights have become increasingly prevalent through social media.
That said, the use of fallacious arguments is the tool by which one gaslights. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
Fair point in that they aren't mutually exclusive, but I would disagree that logical fallacies are then only means used to gaslight. Gaslighting is the action by which an abuser sews doubt in one's own judgement, and beliefs – that can be done any number of ways.
When you use fallacies intentionally to convince someone that their basic and true point is wrong… That’s a form of gaslight.
Gaslighting isn't necessarily attempting to convince someone that what they believe is wrong, it's meant to cause someone to question reality, their own sanity, beliefs, memories, etc. This can of course be used to sway average public opinion in the direction of a desired agenda, but it's not trying to convince change in one's opinion, I would argue.
The term doesn’t need to only apply to relationships. Political gaslights have become increasingly prevalent through social media.
Oh, for sure. A simple example would be the official denial of a true event's occurence.
This. I'm against Hamas, and I'm also against the current government of Israel. I'm at a point of only caring for civilians of Israel and Palestine after reading up on the history of the conflict. Any one else? They're part of the problem.
Israel's right-wing government is becoming anti-democratic, and their position on settlements is antagonistic.
But Hamas is pro-genocide, happily murders Jewish children, and use their own children as meat shields.
It bothers me that people equate these two.
They aren't the same.
The israeli government also has killed a shit ton of people. There's two villains here and one huge and persistent, the other is resourceful and brutal. They aren't the same but the media is insistent on portraying Hamas as the sole villain here and people are rightful to push back on that narrative.
In fairness, the other doesn't have to be resourceful and brutal. They already have it all. They live in wealth, have the vast majority of land, and just shove these people into tighter cages then wonder why they get more violent.
It's kind of incredible how both Hamas and Likud have escalated and antagonized so much that the PLO now look like the adults in the room by comparison.
Palestinians are desperate and brutally oppressed. Isreal literally wants to genocide them. This situation gives them the excuse they've always wanted. They should take it. Wipe them all out quick instead of the slow concentration of the Gaza strip. I understand that this opinion is brutal, but there's no hope in hell for the Palestinians. The world just doesn't care enough about the poor and marginalized.
All governments engaged in self defense kill people. What's important is to what degree they try to minimize collateral damage, and Israel indisputably takes more steps to minimize civilian casualties than any other fighting force in history.
How much did you get paid to tell that blatant of a lie?
Sure, we can accept that they're not the same. At the same time, no one should support either of them.
It makes zero sense to compare the violence of the occupied with the violence of the occupiers. How many Israelis settled in Palestine because they moved from cities like New York? Do they really have equal share in the conflict when they moved from a place like America to steal land from an olive farmer whose family has been there for thousands of years.
Many people didn't choose to be born in both regions, and many civilians who don't hold those shitty ideals are dead that don't deserve to be. But if there never will be peace, and one group should go to establish peace. It certainly should be the occupiers
What's awful is you see this both with people who dislike Hamas, and with people who support the Palestinians. There's plenty of "um actually" folks I've seen on Lemmy who are putting Hamas in a sympathetic light under the guise of Palestinian liberation. And you need not look far to find people who lump all Palestinians together with those terrorists.
The rally was well intentioned, I hope, but horribly tone deaf. It would've been better to recast it as support for Palestinians and Israeli civilians, given current events, and condemned Hamas for hurting both.
I hate how often nuance is lost, and that you have to very loudly point out the nuance to make sure it's clear, but that's the world we live in. This rally failed to do that.
The rally is exactly what Hamas wants. It's the reason they use human shields.
Agreed actually. It benefits them but hurts Palestinians for the two to be conflated.
You mean like how people confuse Israelis with their government? Both are wrong.
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I mean they're the same. Israel created a situation where the only way to struggle against oppression is to mass-murder civilians, so naturally civilians are being mass-murdered.
Edit: Obligatory I don't support the mass-murder of civilians.
Yeah, I mean killing Jewish civilians is the only way! Palestinians have been doing it for decades, and it hasn't ever worked, but it's the only way!
They've tried nothing else, but this is the only way!
They’ve tried nothing else, but this is the only way!
Tell me you know nothing about Palestine without telling me you know nothing about Palestine.
You might wanna look up the Oslo peace process (which, by the way, came after the first intifada).
I mean Israel funded Hamas specifically to weaken the PLO; they've proven time and time again that they don't want peace.
The Oslo peace Accords that Palestinians walked away from and immediately started a famously cruel wave of terrorist attacks? Those Oslo Accords?
Yes, the Oslo Accords where Israel refused to even let Palestinians have a military.
Truly, shocking. I wonder why they wouldn't have been comfortable with that. It just confounds the mind.
And?
The Allies wouldn't let post-wwii Germany have a military either.
You don't let the people who tried to kill you build an army in peace time only to grow powerful enough to kill you.
The Palestinian refugees only exist because the countries that they used to belong to try to invade and destroy Israel.
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See, that's what I was talking about. Israel doesn't want Palestinians to have an actual, functional state. They proved that time and time again.
What was in the Oslo peace process that Gaza doesn't have?
No no, the peace process failed. What Gaza has now (which isn't a lot considering… y'know) is a result of the Second Intifada that came after.
What they have is because of a good faith effort by Israeli's left wing parties to broker a "prove-it" peace deal in Gaza. In Gaza, they gave up every single demand that Palestine had for the West Bank as a whole as a way to prove domestically that such an outcome would lead to peace.
So tell me, what did Palestine demand in the Oslo Accords that they didn't get in the Gaza deal?
So first, I can't actually find anything about that deal. Also one of Palestine's demands was sovereignty over the entire West Bank and Gaza strip, which is obviously not what's happening now, off the top of my head.
Is that accurate in Gaza? Gaza has the 1967 borders, broad fiscal and in kind aid built in. Political autonomy, a foreign, non-Israeli border and zero settlements with existing settlers being forced at gunpoint to leave almost 20 years ago.
Gaza could easily "struggle" by building an actual democratic society, wealthy enough to fund a legitimate war against Israel. Instead it chooses to fund it's multimillionaire leaders and their foreign mansions and spend whatever it can on weapons of war and enslaving it's neighbors.
Political autonomy, a foreign, non-Israeli border and zero settlements with existing settlers being forced at gunpoint to leave almost 20 years ago.
They're also subjected to a blockade that's turning the country into an open-air prison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Limitation_of_basic_goods
There's more reasons for Gazans to fight Israel, but the elephant in the room is the blockade. It's legitimately impossible to build a functional state under these conditions no matter how much democracy you have (though the lack of democracy probably isn't helping).
They're also subjected to a blockade that's turning the country into an open-air prison.
And now you see why. With the aid that did get through instead of improving the lives of it's citizens, Hamas choose to invest in a strike force and rockets to attack and enslaved Israelis.
They also have a border with Egypt that's closed, not by Israel but by Egypt because of their countries actions.
There's more reasons for Gazans to fight Israel
Hamas isn't meeting Israel on an open field or even targeting military and logistical sites (roads, bridges, airports etc…) in a guerilla campaign. Their raiding Israel for slaves, and raping and killing the captives like it's 2000 years ago.
Nothing I can imagine, Hamas could have chosen to do could justify the blockade and Israel's past actions more than what they did.
With the aid that did get through instead of improving the lives of it’s citizens, Hamas choose to invest in a strike force and rockets to attack and enslaved Israelis.
I mean they're not exactly getting money that can be invested; they're getting resources. I don't know what rockets are made of so I don't know if it's coming from foreign aid, but given that Israel bans any and all "double-use" aid I don't see that being possible.
Their raiding Israel for slaves, and raping and killing the captives like it’s 2000 years ago.
Yeah that's just indefensible.
I don't know what rockets are made of so I don't know if it's coming from foreign aid, but given that Israel bans any and all "double-use" aid I don't see that being possible.
Metal and/or PVC pipes and concrete or cement with a variety of common construction explosives or common chemicals used as rocket fuel. A.K.A the supplies needed to build homes add baisc plumbing and build irrigation networks for desert farming.
Yeah that's just indefensible.
Read through this thread, it's being defended.
Metal and/or PVC pipes and concrete or cement with a variety of common construction explosives or common chemicals used as rocket fuel.
AFAIK these things aren't entering through the blockade anyway.
Read through this thread, it’s being defended.
Those are probably the communists so I guess they'll defend anything.
That article is kind of odd in its linking NYC DSA so heavily with a rally it didn’t organize and at which zero prominent DSA members were seen. I can’t find anything on their web site “endorsing” it. In the last paragraph, there’s even a quote from an actual organizer criticizing DSA for not having a presence at the rally.
It kind of makes me wonder if it’s a smear campaign by the city’s establishment Democrats. In NYC, DSA is probably a bigger threat to their power than any other party.
Threads like this always blow my mind. People supporting Hamas here, you realize they're the same as Isis right?
They're literally dragging women thru the streets raping them, while people stand by and cheer. They're targeting women and children in the streets, non combatants. They're taking hostages as human shields and bragging about it.
Can people really support this? I can't support many of the actions of the Israeli government, but this is quite clearly not a case of both sides being the same and Hamas is the one making that abundantly clear with their horrific actions.
And you can support the plight of the Palestinians without supporting Hamas. The Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006, but since then Hamas has cancelled elections.
Imagine if Trump decided to cancel the 2020 elections (he wouldn't have the power to do so under our political system, but just assume he found a way). Would the fact that he was elected in 2016 mean that he was still the legitimate political leader in 2023 having cancelled elections? Of course not.
Hamas' leaders live in luxury outside of the Israel/Gaza Strip/West Bank area. (I believe they're in Qatar.) They don't care if the Palestinian people suffer and die as long as they can blame it on the Israelis and spin it into more attacks on Israel.
Hamas needs to go not just for Israel's sake, but for the sake of the Palestinian people.
I'll agree with you while pointing out that Hamas has over 75% approval ratings in the strip.
People are in the streets cheering for the rape and murder of hostages. Not a few people, thousands of them.
Don't ignore this reality when forming your thoughts.
Where did you get the 75%?
Pretty fucking rich for a terrorist organization that will summarily execute those in its territory that don't support it. Maybe you shouldn't ignore that insane batshit crazy reality when forming your absurd psychotic thoughts.
Yeah they're terrorists, so is Israel. Difference is they were radicalized by Israel occupying their land for decades.
Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N. | Reuters https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-u-n-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620
That's not the only difference. I distinctly don't remember a time where Israeli soldiers dragged slaves through Tel Aviv to the cheers of a Jewish population.
I don't know of any "good actors" in Middle East politics. The state of Israel was basically founded on genocide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight
In 1948 more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war.[9] The exodus was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba,[10][11] in which between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed, village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning
Ya 75 years ago shit went down. Then they fought for 20 years and 50 years ago cease fire lines were drawn and peace lines followed. 2-3 generations have happened since the conflict ended. They're not going anywhere on either side.
Now you have one side literally enslaving and raping civilians from the other side while demanding genocide and another side that has trouble figuring out how to respond to rockets fired from hospitals and schools.
No modern country isn't built on Genocide. Heck some of my ancestors were only where they were because of Jackson and the trail of tears. But let's be clear, everybody would condem me if I advocated for a genocide in Georgia so my surviving kinfolk could reclaim their homeland. And the same principle exists in Palestine.
Not the same? Are u blind?
The West Bank isn't attacking Israel, Gaza is. There's no Jewish settlers in the Gaza strip.
I'm not finding women being raped in the streets there? I'm not finding kids being gunned down in the streets, can you show me where the Israelis did that here?
They are not nearly the same even with your false equivalence.
Yes I can show u how theyve killed kids and entire families killed and their homes destroyed and land taken. Google Israeli soldier murders and see what u get.
Are u really trying to argue Israel is the good guy here? Lol
A massive terrorist operation happens two days ago and you are over here defending those responsible, as if they had a reason to kill innocent people. Cmon man… these people are taking hostages and killing children. I’m going to block you man you are a disgusting human being.
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I hate to break it to these assholes but if mass murdering and raping children aren't among the acts where you draw a line, then you need to get the hell off this planet. Those are not legitimate targets - those are a fucking war crimes. Same goes for everyone regardless of affiliations.
I mostly agree with you, and that should include Israel. Israel does not deserve support as long as it supports Zionism any more or less than Hamas. I agree this is horrible, and the whole situation is horrible. We should cut support to Israel and continue to not support Hamas.
I don’t care about Zionism. As far as I’m concerned every government on Earth - including my own US - who kills innocent people through action and inaction should have to answer for it. The individuals who did it, from top to bottom, should have to answer for their crimes.
Unfortunately we live in the real world - aka hell. Nothing will change and people will keep on being horrible and never be called to account.
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I'm an AOC fan but calling on Israel to deescalate is just insane right now.
That would be like some county asking the US to deescalate the day after the 9/11 attacks.
What? No. Hamas needs to be stamped out.
That would be like some county asking the US to deescalate the day after the 9/11 attacks.
Yeah and our escalation really improved things, didn't it?
What Israel is going to do is mount a full scale invasion of Gaza and they're going to be even more heavy handed than usual. Tens of thousands of innocent people are going to die, that don't have to die.
Hamas should have considered that before massacring hundreds of citizens, but it's never once cared about actually achieving peace.
Its founding document literally calls for the complete eradication of all Jews from the land.
And its leaders don't care about the Palestinian people. They live safely (and very comfortably) in other countries. If Palestinians get killed by Israelis, Hamas leaders will just see it as a way to advocate for more violence against Jews.
And vice versa
I admit to not having read the Israeli founding documents but I’d bet it doesn’t call for eradicating Palestinians.
Without a doubt, Israeli policy hasn't been conducive to piece either. The leadership of both sides are absolutely terrible, which has apparently become a very hot take.
What Israel has not done is gone around murdering every Palestinian it can find (which would be over very quickly, if they actually wanted to).
Hamas is an ugly outgrowth of Israeli oppression and was supported initially by Israel. The problem is that the side with all the power, Israel, doesn't want justice. Only when that changes will peace come
Hamas is an ugly outgrowth of Iranian Anti Semitism. Israel has responded, quite ferociously, but they're not responsible for the hatred that pre dates the British mandate.
The solution here is to destroy all of Hamas and the IDF.
If only Hamas was the only threat, Hezbollah kicked into action when this started up.
The solution here is for the Palestinian people to rise up and get rid of the government that's using them as human shields. Israel has attempted to work towards peace before, only to be rejected by terrorists. Get a democratic government in place, and there's hope.
That hope is also dependant on the Right wing government of Israel being replaced but based on history Bibi won't last 6 months after this defensive failure.
Just destroying all of Hamas should do it. Unless of course Iran et al keep waging a cold war against Israel.
That wouldn't prevent the IDF from committing human rights abuses against Palestinians, which they have continued to do regardless of Hamas activities, especially in West Bank.
Israel literally just published a map with no Palestine, and said "Palestinians don't exist".
Difference being, Israel is the occupier saying this shit, and Palestinians have been occupied for decades.
If you're the kind of person who thinks that rape and murder could ever be justifiable actions so long as you say that you're resisting oppression, suffice it to say what we will not be seeing eye to eye on anything.
That map is stupid though and obviously unhelpful. I'm not claiming that Israel hasn't committed any atrocities either.
What Israel is doing is ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians, not just hamas. Do you feel like a hero for saying ethnic cleansing is justifiable because some Palestinians raped and murdered some people that were stealing their land?
Of course it's gray, of course there are bad actors on both sides. But the entirety of Israel is modern colonialism, and excusing their actions of ethnic cleansing is supporting white supremacy
If Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, it's doing an astonishingly bad job at it given their overwhelming dominance in fire power
Not that you care, but for anyone who does care about facts, most Israelis are from the Middle East, not Europe. A huge amount of the come from Jewish populations that were expelled from Arab countries. There used to be Jewish people all throughout the Middle East, for thousands of years. In the last hundred years, they've essentially all been forcibly expelled. You might even call it ethnic cleansing.
Literally, just imagine what it would look like if Israel was expelling Palestinians the way Iraq expelled Jews.
Why does Iraq expelling Jewish people give Israelis the right to steal Palestinian land? Are you suggesting all Arab ethnicities are the same?
I mean Hamas had some really good PR going but they really, really fucked up this time.
Many countries now withdrawing aid, most are reluctantly supporting Israel because most countries despite being just as guilty as Israel, know that Israel is the West's proxy in the middle east.
The blood of both Palestinian civilians and Israeli civilians, and the imminent occupation of the region is going to be on their hands.
I don't know what they're smoking.
You're assuming they ever had a deeper plan than "Kill as many Jews as possible".
Any progress towards actual peace must begin and end with ending all violence and ensuring Israel's security. Once it feels that it's safe, Israel could end the blockade, support economic and social development, and begin normalization of relations.
Violence makes that completely impossible and does nothing but make Israel guarantee that attacks like this never happen again, and many Palestinians are going to die in the process. Hamas knew this, but didn't care because they've never been trying to actually help Palestinians. Their sole aim, as enshrined in their founding charter, is just to kill Jews.
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75% of Israelis today were born there, so where exactly should they go?
Israel is 80 years old, 100% of Palestinians in Israel were born in Palestine, and have ancestors for thousands of years.
How many Israelis moved from Brooklyn to steal that land?
Yeah and our escalation really improved things, didn't it?
Essentially yes. "Making an example" out of Afghanistan and Iraq made the militaries of the Middle East crack down on official support of terrorist cells in their countries.
Israel supported Hamas to displace the PLO and their continued existence is very useful foe the Israeli far right.
You don't just stamp out a terrorist organization like Hamas. Not without wiping out an entire people.
Not saying Bibi isn't planning to do just that… but that doesn't make it justified.
Yeah, literally all of them did that, and were correct to do so. That it made little difference doesn't matter, just as it won't matter in this case.
It hasn't worked the last 999 times it was tried but surely this time will be different
And, per capita, the death toll in Israel would be equivalent to an attack on the US causing 25,000 deaths. Imagine if someone attacked the United States and 25,000 people died. Would we be showing restraint?
Yes, Hamas are the bad guys here
So the good guys kill civilians, including the elderly and children, and that's justified because Israel did things that were wrong?
Hamas aren't the good guys here. If they targeted military areas, I'd agree that this was a legitimate reply to Israeli violence. However, targeting innocent citizens - especially in the brutal way that they did - removes any semblance of high ground that they might have.
Now, this isn't to say that the Israeli government are the good guys either. They've done many things that obviously shouldn't have been done. Some were in reply to attacks. Some provoked attacks.
There's plenty of blame to go around for the general situation and the solution to this isn't going to be easy. But saying "well, the Israeli government did X so killing Israeli civilians was justified" is totally wrong.
Nope, I never said that. I simply said that Hamas is not the bad guys. What I’m saying is that this idea that there is a binary of “good guys” and “bad guys” is a bullshit narrative believed by naive people that only read propaganda like this story.
For what it’s worth, Israel specifically targets land with civilians on it that they want to settle, blow it up, then claim boogie man “Hamas” did it. They’ve been doing it for DECADES. We’re talking occupied apartment buildings, hospitals, schools…and somehow it never gets covered by the western media. Go look at death and injury statistics for the area. Even western sources will tell you that the Israeli forces are way more brutal than Hamas could ever hope to be.
This isn’t a big surprise to anybody who has observed this conflict for more than a single news cycle.
Indeed. Israel is also in the position of power here. They can choose to start towards a lasting peace but they want all the land instead. Hamas is a symptom of this
Reducing it to a binary is the incorrect analogy.
The needle of responsibility in this conflict definitely leans toward Hamas.
Every Palestinian civilian death, every displacement, every house bombed, every western country, like Austria, who withdrew support, the imminent reoccupation of the region, it's all on Hamas.
They really really hung themselves on the world stage with this one, they had some excellent PR going too.
regarding your previous statements about the terror group hamas, you do not, under any circumstances "gotta hand it to them"
What the actual bell are you talking about?
