Additionally, what changes are necessary for you to be able to use Linux full time?
I got tired of everything taking so much effort. I was almost always able to eventually wrangle what I wanted out of the OS, but every change I wanted to make and thing I wanted to try needed so much searching and learning. I wanted stuff that just worked, even if it was “dumber.”
That, and some parts of the community I ran into were really prickly. One that was especially memorable: I was asking for help on a big-ish project with a lot of followers and helpers and didn’t expect the lead dev to answer my question, but when he did, he felt the need to make a snide as hell comment about how I have no business being there if I’m going to forget to start a service. On top of the exhaustion I was already feeling, I had a massive moment of “okay my guy, I guess I’ll just fucking leave then.”
Anyway, it just feels better being a poweruser on windows. I know enough to keep it clean, safe, and slim (like using powershell to disable the bits they don’t expose to a settings UI, for example) – to truly admin my machine – without having to work so hard for it day in and day out.
Yikes, that is why I hate tech forums. Too many times I’ve asked an informed/thought out question I’m unable to find via search and the first replier basically says “hey go FUCK yourself.”
I work in IT, this is how a lot of engineers and administrators are to be honest. I hate the dick measuring contests in my field.
Hahaha, SO TRUE!!
Unfortunately, those kinds of interactions are inevitable when the developer/user relationship is so close. And it goes both ways. I saw a thread just yesterday where a user reported an issue on github, a second user said they saw it too. Later the first user posted a workaround to the issue, and the second user came back with “took you long enough”, and that was the end of the exchange.
Some people in the world are just dicks, but that doesn’t mean we should reject interacting with everyone. Similarly, a community of user-maintained software is going to have some asshats, but that doesn’t mean we should hand our computing freedom over to one or two corporations. Just my two cents.
Some people in the world are just dicks, but that doesn’t mean we should reject interacting with everyone.
Corollary: Your personal aversion to corporations doesn’t mean users have have any motivation or obligation to keep trying when we’re getting pushback from both the software and those who maintain it.
Anyway, I’m not sure how you got that I reject interacting with everyone after my experience, but extrapolating my statement to that kind of extreme phrasing sure doesn’t fill me with confidence about future interactions, either.
Hey there, I think we got off on the wrong foot. I’m not discounting anything you’re saying, I agree that it’s definitely a very real phenomenon, and didn’t intend to provoke a defensive response. I didn’t say that you were “rejecting interacting with everyone”, on the contrary, I’m saying that in the physical world you deal with people who act like dicks, but you specifically DON’T reject interacting with everyone. I’m drawing a parallel between that behavior in the physical world with how I believe we should also behave in the digital one.
I also did not say that I have any personal aversion to corporations, I owe most of my daily comforts to corporations, so I would be a hypocrite to say as much. But if I had said that “I don’t think we should stick our hands in blenders” that doesn’t mean I have a personal aversion to blenders.
Cheers
I still can’t really agree that the comparison holds; we try harder in real life because the bar for being a dick is (usually) higher. On the internet, when all it takes is a few easy sentences to be a dick to a faceless stranger whose reaction we don’t have to see… to me, the response should be equally fluid, else we get bogged down being the only one putting in the effort and taking a constant beating to our self-esteem when we wonder why no one is bothering to hear us.
However, I appreciate you being chill about clearing up what you meant. I did initially miss the comparison you were going for and feel like I was getting cereal box therapy about not cutting people off (and thus staying in toxic communities) when that wasn’t what you meant.
Cheers back.
I hear you, perhaps there is a fundamental difference there with the digital world.
I really want to see some linux distro get to the point that users don’t have to wonder if something has gone horribly wrong for them. As much as I do disapprove of some of Apple’s repairability policies, and as much of a toxic human being Jobs was, Steve Jobs really was a visionary. He saw that if you paid attention to detail, you could turn a computer into something that “just worked” for people who weren’t tech savvy. Until that point, it was engineers selling to other engineers, they just couldn’t see the potential that technology had. As far as I can tell, the linux world has never had someone with such a relentless vision for user experience. I personally think it’s because the opportunity for profit just isn’t there, or at least no one sees it.
But there was a time when buying a windows license meant you got a copy of windows and that was it; now no matter what you do it’s full of ads and telemetry and constant popups about new features you never asked for. I would gladly pay the price of a windows license for a linux distro that was as thought out and usable as an Apple or Windows product in their prime, and maybe we’re entering a window (no pun intended) of time where that’s finally possible.
Unfortunately everyone has a limit for how much work they’d like to put in.
Currently my experience with 3D printing. It’s one thing after another, and the community, at least on Reddit and Facebook, fucking sucks. If I ask a question, it’s always “hey how about you go fuck yourself” or an essay that has zero relevance to what I’m asking. Made a post on Reddit the other day (I know, but have a single burner account until the 3D printing community here takes off more) and just asked to see some settings due to just constantly having issue after issue. Half of the responses were people just telling me they’re not fucking wizards and they need to know what kind of problems I’m having. I… didn’t ask for that whatsoever. I very explicitly just asked for someone’s slicer settings to compare to.
That’s absolutely the worst help forum experience, when you’re asking one question but everyone extrapolates the question they think you REALLY meant to ask and talks down to you about it.
And of course if you try to steer the conversation back to your actual question, you get painted as the unreasonable one placing all sorts of conditions on the generous free help others are allowed to bestow upon you.
The less reliance on others Linux requires, the better off it will be for general adoption.
Haha your second paragraph sums it up perfectly. A few folks did share their settings, but they were for completely different printers/hardware haha. Most of the online guides I’ve found are written under the assumption that you’re already a master at the hobby, and it’s strangely spread out in random little nooks of the internet - there’s not really a ton of centralized discussion forums. Maybe the hobby is way smaller than I thought, or maybe I’m just in way over my head, but I fix tech problems for a living - did not expect this to be as much of a challenge. Never buy a 3D printer if you value your sanity and living stress-free. Sorry, I just needed to rant for a minute haha.
everyone extrapolates the question they think you REALLY meant to ask and talks down to you about it
It’s true, but the “X-Y problem” is real.
The question may be “what’s the best way to do X”, when they actually want to do Y and they concluded, erroneously, that X is the best way to do it. Responders suspect this, so they want to steer the questioner to a best explanation to find out if that’s the case, just to watch the questioner’s tantrum when the immediate answer is not what they expect.
Speaking only for myself, if I want to know the best way to do Y, I ask about how I can do Y. If I’m at the stage where I’ve moved on to asking about how to do X, there’s a reason I want to approach the problem that specific way – personal preference, limitations of my setup, learning a new approach, whatever else – and I’m not there to get into some asinine argument defending my choice, I’m there to find out how to do X.
So while I’m well aware of the thought process behind it, I will never not find it incredibly disrespectful to disregard the question being asked in order to make snarky little guesses at intent and answer a totally different question.
This, of course, assumes perfect understanding on your part. That could be a mistake, specially as you are, you know, asking for help.
The standard “come prepared with a good question” is simply not as hard for a savvy user to meet as you’re making it out; certainly it’s far easier than scrying between the lines and derailing the topic on purpose, and it strikes me as arrogant that anyone would trust their own attempts at mind-reading more than the clear words on the page. I’ve got a very good idea why you’re taking this all so personally that you’re replying to it three weeks after any of it was active.
Well, at least the very fact that you’re taking it personally means it dug deep enough that you’re aware it’s a problem, even if you still have a bit of a journey before you accept it needs a change.
The standard “come prepared with a good question” is simply not as hard for a savvy user to meet as you’re making it out
Your mistake is presupposing a savvy user.
I’ve got a very good idea why you’re taking this all so personally that you’re replying to it three weeks after any of it was active.
Please enlighten all of us about the procedure granting you telepathy, or shut the fuck up.
did you level your bed first!?
I’ve found this same type of animosity and superiority all over tech forums in general.
You’re not wrong, but running Linux directly correlates to more time spent on “tech forums in general,” so it’s still a bigger problem with that OS than others imo.
Jeez that is nasty. What project was it?
I was trying to run my own personal-use instance of LiveJournal back 20 years ago when it was open source (and not owned by Russia). Just to see if I could, as is the spirit of a tinkerer.
There was a handful of paid staff as well as a bunch of enthusiastic volunteers, so I expected one of them to answer a low-priority newbie support request, not… what I got.
Shit never works and I basically have to become a programmer and expert in CLI to get shit to work… until it breaks again. So after having to Google everything on how to do supposedly simple shit, I always end up going back to Windows and GUI’s because I don’t have time to become a developer.
It just doesn’t work. It’s a simple as that. Things are constantly breaking. When they do I look up support articles that are written in fucking Klingon and sent to the terminal to type in commands that always return some sort of generic error “command not found” or some shit because the solution is written for a different one of the 862700422 available distros.
I have no idea how to install all the different program types (flathub, db, appimage, etc.). Windows has exe. I click “install” and boom, it’s done.
Sometimes I try to remove software in the package manager and it acts like it is uninstalled but it’s still fucking there.
I can’t even select a file because there are no previews. Just a gazillion blue squares with names like “dlcosn_3947912947”.
And other reasons, but I digress. I don’t have time to learn a new career, I just want a computer that works.
I used Linux Mint for several years on a dual-boot laptop. I rarely found myself booting Windows. While there was a learning curve, Mint was fairly accessible out of the box and was generally a delight to use. Until it wasn’t. At some point, the drivers for my video card updated, and just flat broke everything. And I can’t really use a computer on which I can’t see the desktop. I waited. And waited. A fix for the driver may have eventually come, but after awhile, booting into Windows just became my default, until eventually I just wiped the Linux partition to recover the storage space.
It was fun while it lasted, and I may choose one day to give it another go for the fourth time. This wasn’t the first time I’ve had something like this happen. First time was with Fedora, and the second was Ubuntu. Each time, I had the same “it worked until it didn’t” experience, and each time it stopped working was usually some kind of broken driver making my hardware incompatible.
you don’t have to use all of the app containers things, pacman, apt or whatever your distro uses is often enough.
if you don’t have previews at all, your system is completely broken and fucked up if you get a command not found, well you just need install the missing tool…you don’t have to use all of the app containers things, pacman, apt or whatever your distro uses is often enough.
I don’t even know what these words mean.
if you don’t have previews at all, your system is completely broken and fucked up
What are “previews”?
if you get a command not found, well you just need install the missing tool…
…what tool!?
I’m constantly genuinely surprised at how Linux users are unable to grasp why people don’t want to use it.
Your points are all entirely fair. It also surprises me how quite a few people don’t get it.
And it’s not that many requisites to fix it either.
A) don’t break shit on updates. This is the worst thing that could happen.
B) There needs to be a clicky app store. Just one. No options. No pick your repos. No pick between flatpak and whatever else. Just a visual app store you click an app and it install. You click to remove it gets removed.
It’s seriously not that much you’d think.
Having that said. If you do choose to endure through the learning curve. It’s mostly worth it. But fuck. It’s such a dumb self imposed learning curve.
The biggest strength of linux, is also its greatest flaw and weakness.
Is that if people disagree with what a projects doing, they can split off, make their own version of the project, and now that has to compete with the other project, as well as the 5 others that are out there.
So things just keep diluting, and spreading out, when it should be going in the opposite direction for a good user experience.
I agree so hard with both of the needs listed here.
well gnome software and epiphany app stores just work.
click, install, done.
they provide an option to pick the source to install from (package/flatpak/snap), but they both automatically pick the best one for you.Debian/Ubuntu almost never break on updates (unless you mess with the PPAs too much), but at a significant cost: some packages and software (especially desktop environments and system packages) being 1-2 years out of date.
well gnome software and epiphany app stores just work.
Man I wish I had time to boot up a vm with a big distro, open both stores and try to install something, it’s immediately obvious.
There’s a reason everyone online says “oh yeah, the stores exist, i still use the terminal though”
They do not work.
As a power user, I just like the terminal more, it’s much quicker to install stuff from the terminal.
you mentioned that file previews are broken for you, thy should just work, unless some component it terribly broken or missing…
also about the last part, package name usually matchess the name of the command, so for example if an online guide tells you to use the ffmpeg command and it’s not found on your system, usually that means that you have to install a package called ffmpeg.
some package managers and command line shells provide more helpful error messages, like: command X was not found, but here are some packages that provide this command, do you want to install one of them?by the way, you mentioned that you tried using Fedora. common source of frustration is beginners trying to use
apton a system that doesn’t support or use it (apt is only used in Debian, Ubuntu, and their derivatives). Fedora usesdnfinstead.…but, as a beginner, you shouldn’t even worry about this, as most distros provide easy-to-use, graphical app store applications that can automagically install apps (from your package manager, Flatpak, Snap, etc, picking the source automatically if it’s unavailable in one of them) with a single click.
you mentioned that file previews are broken for you, thy should just work, unless some component it terribly broken or missing…
Uhhhhh nope, that’s just the way it works.
…but, as a beginner, you shouldn’t even worry about this, as most distros provide easy-to-use, graphical app store applications that can automagically install apps
Yes I have the “Software” package manager. At best it is extremely slow, at worst it just doesn’t work at all. But it doesn’t come preloaded with many repositories, I had to manually load flatpak.
I have no idea how to install all the different program types (flathub, db, appimage, etc.). Windows has exe. I click “install” and boom, it’s done.
That’s strange, I’ve always felt that installing stuff is a lot easier on Ubuntu than windows. It’s just
apt installandapt remove. Having to manually download and run an exe feels outdated in comparison.I can’t even select a file because there are no previews. Just a gazillion blue squares with names like “dlcosn_3947912947”.
Curious what distro you installed that had that issue. The only preview issue I’ve encountered was on win10 where I had to pay for windows to support H.265 to give me previews of H.265 files.
Things are constantly breaking. When they do I look up support articles that are written in fucking Klingon and sent to the terminal to type in commands that always return some sort of generic error “command not found” or some shit because the solution is written for a different one of the 862700422 available distros.
That’s a fair point though. If you aren’t willing (and most aren’t) to learn enough to be comfortable with the terminal, it can be very easy break something when you are forced to interact with the terminal.
I’ve always felt that installing stuff is a lot easier on Ubuntu than windows. It’s just apt install and apt remove .
😂 Except that you have to know exactly what is, character for character, and usually includes some long string of numbers and letters where 1 character is wrong and you have to retype the whole damn thing. This is the opposite of easy.
Curious what distro you installed that had that issue.
Fedora/Gnome
If you aren’t willing (and most aren’t) to learn enough to be comfortable with the terminal, it can be very easy break something when you are forced to interact with the terminal.
Yes and the problem is you’re ALWAYS sent into the terminal for absolutely any kind of debugging.
Except that you have to know exactly what is, character for character
Everything has [Tab] completion these days.
And double tab for a list of you really don’t want to search.
My PC only gets used for gaming and I was fed up of switching into Windows for every other game. I WANT to use Linux but game developers just aren’t allowing me.
You should look into VFIO. I was in the same place where I wanted to have a Linux desktop but I don’t want to dual boot to play games because that shit is CRAZY annoying. However, there’s a way to virtualize Windows inside of you Linux desktop and get 99% of your GPU’s performance due to VFIO. I think if you use Kubuntu specifically there’s a really strong guide for setting it up, although admittedly it’s not trivial. Good luck!
Have you tried asking one of these developers why they aren’t allowing you playing on linux?
Necessity. When most of the software you use is reliant on Windows it’s hard to make Linux your daily driver. That being said, the changes needed to make it worth it are already done in limited contexts. Steam deck is pure Linux, the user interface and everything is implemented in a way that the user does not have to deal with the complexity, but the underlying mechanisms for doing wonky shit is still there if you want to mess with it. It’s kinda the best of both worlds in that sense.
If we wanted a desktop experience to replicate that, you would just have to do the exact same thing. Abstract the user experience such that the layperson does not need to engage with the complicated bits, but leave them there for those that do want them. And arguably that is being done with some distros, but it’s just not quite there yet.
Steam works flawlessly with Linux now. If you have an Nvidia GFX card then you can even get a Pop!_OS install with the driver pre-configured. It’s pretty rad!
Is Steam a necessity of yours? Do you work in the videogames industry?
No, and I explained that steam works perfectly fine on Linux.
It kept working.
Linux, every time, without fail, commits suicide after a few weeks/months. It’s never something big, always small stuff. A conf file which got fucked by a package. Init.d calls something stupid. Mbr bullshit.
And the same applies to get stuff to work. It’s not hard, but researching the issue and fixing it takes time. Those issues do not exist in windows.
It gets annoying. Windows, for all it’s shit has gotten more and more self repairing over the years.
I want to work. I want to play. Now, preferably.
A few years ago I installed Ubuntu on a laptop, used it a bunch of times then it got put away for a year or so. When I booted it back up it told me the OS was out of date and needed to be updated. When I tried it gave me some errors. I searched online and basically I couldn’t update because it was too old. I needed to update in stages but the next release was also out of support.
I realised I don’t use it enough to care. I installed windows on it.
I do use Linux at work and on things at home like routers, retro gaming, etc. They’re not really comparable though.
So, I’ve been running Linux as a desktop for a number of years, never had a problem of it dieing weekly or monthly. I’ve had my share of “ah shit, I should restart because some package updated and tings got a little spooky”, but never out right ded.
In saying that, I’m used to this modus operandi, and how to fix these things, but I’m curious as to why you were having weekly/monthly issues. E.g. were you running the latest distros, and not LTS versions?
A comparison with windows is that they control the whole OS, and on theory everything is LTS. Linux gives you those freedoms, and also those problems if you choose to use them etc.
This, and gaming. Linux has come a long way, but has a long way to go. Linux seems to be a long string of hicccups that need to be solved, instead of something that works for me. Although the POPos distro was by far the smoothest, it still became troublesome trying to play games on it.
Linux, every time, without fail, commits suicide after a few weeks
You must be doing something really wrong with it because on popular distros this is not really supposed to happen. If you encounter such issues report them to the devs. You probably want to try a more stable distro
They’re not doing anything wrong. This is my experience, as well as many many others. Why else would so many people and businesses overlook a completely free operating system? I’ve used all the “stable” distros.
If I reported issues to the devs, I wouldn’t be doing anything else, and it wouldn’t solve the problem I have TODAY. This is not a solution.
“Why else would so many businesses overlook a completely free operating system”
Well, they don’t. Plenty of businesses use Linux systems. It’s not (only) because it’s free, though. The issue of licensing often isn’t a factor that comes into play over having a system that just works. It’s easy to customize, flexible and comparatively secure. Your experiences with Linux are valid, but many businesses and individuals do use it daily and for good reason.
Well, they don’t. Plenty of businesses use Linux systems.
Well they do. Plenty of businesses (ie: virtually all of them) use Windows. Those are the ones I was referring to.
This is just nonsense. Linux servers are all over the place. Google has its own internal distribution of Ubuntu! I feel like you’re not arguing in good faith, here.
Edit: For reading at your leisure: A list of organizations that have adopted Linux for regular use
This is just nonsense.
No. It’s not.
Linux servers are all over the place.
Linux servers are run by IT admin. AKA people who know how to use Linux.
I feel like you’re not arguing in good faith, here.
I feel like you’re making up bullshit arguments based on angry words you read on the Internet.
Yeah, businesses that use Linux generally hire people who know how to use Linux. I don’t think you actually know what you’re arguing about anymore, but you can do it by yourself. Hope things get better for you in the future.
This thread is about Linux on the desktop, servers are not really relevant to this discussion.
That’s fair, but it’s hard to not bring up servers when someone is making broad statements like “businesses don’t use Linux”, though. In the scope of that particular discussion I feel servers are pertinent enough.
You are doing something wrong. Linux doesn’t blow up by itself… my grandparents and wife both run it for the past 5 years and haven’t had a single issue with it. So how is it that I know people that are completely tech illiterate and have no problems running it, but so many self-proclaimed “power users” here have issues with it?
Linux isn’t going to wall you in and prevent you from breaking it. That’s what I love about it, it gives you power and control over your machine, but if you don’t have the knowledge to wield that power, then you shouldn’t be fucking around with changing things. Stick with the package manager, and don’t fuck with system configs… unless you actually understand how it effects the system.
Why else would so many people and businesses overlook a completely free operating system
There are many, many reasons… not a single one is stability.
If you think that’s the case. Check some big forums for each big distro right after a point update to read the tales of woe and breakage.
My personal experience with this has been:
Pop_OS broke after an update. Unrepairable as far as I could tell. And I tried hard. Happened to multiple.people there was a reddit thread about it.
Fedora broke on an update. Not sure if repairable. I didn’t try. I had the most boring vanilla installation possible.
Arch has been unbootable twice over the years. And had to do many manual interventions. Both times it was fixable.
People are not lying to you when they say it breaks randomly. Just because it wasn’t your personal experience doesn’t mean it isn’t a common experience. You just have been lucky so far.
If you think that’s the case. Check some big forums for each big distro right after a point update to read the tales of woe and breakage.
Again, Linux gives the user full control over it, and that includes the ability to break it… again, many people can not wield that power properly.
People are not lying to you when they say it breaks randomly. Just because it wasn’t your personal experience doesn’t mean it isn’t a common experience. You just have been lucky so far.
You’re right, they are not technically lying, they are just too dumb to realize the thing they did to break it. When immutable distros become more popular, those people will be less likely to break things.
You just have been lucky so far.
It has absolutely nothing to do with luck. Don’t get me wrong, some Linux distros are known for updates breaking them. Arch based distros are infamous for it… but those are bleeding edge, rolling release distros. Distros based on Debian? Redhat? Never fucking break… there are reasons 90% of the top web and cloud infrastructures run on Linux: security and stability.
And Windows breaks all the time with updates… multiple times Windows updates have deleted peoples’ user files. That’s the most erogenous thing an OS can do… delete important user files.
https://www.howtogeek.com/658194/windows-10s-new-update-is-deleting-peoples-files-again/
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People are not lying to you when they say it breaks randomly. Just because it wasn’t your personal experience doesn’t mean it isn’t a common experience. You just have been lucky so far.
Your’e right people are not lying, they just don’t realize what they have done to break it. Linux is great because it gives the users full power… and that includes the power to break it. Windows babysits the user, and it doesn’t allow them to make changes that break it.
If you think that’s the case. Check some big forums for each big distro right after a point update to read the tales of woe and breakage.
So? A lot of dumb people use Linux too… just because dumb people break things doesn’t mean that Linux isn’t stable. There is a reason 90% of web and cloud infrastructure runs on Linux… because it’s a more secure and stable OS.
You just have been lucky so far.
Luck has nothing to do with it.
Your’e right people are not lying, they just don’t realize what they have done to break it.
I’m running a fresh Debian stable build for the past 2-3 days, with NO apt package installed(other than flatpak), no other modifications, vanilla as vanilla gets, only flatpaks installed.
So far: On first install, apt upgrade was broken… lol… yeah.
Other than that, it freezes on suspend, and I’m getting weird screen flickering that it’s really hard to troubleshoot so far, specially because when I turn on OBS it mysteriously just doesnt happen. Also steam doesnt open up sometimes, sometimes it does, depends on if you’re feeling lucky or not, it also doesnt respect the DE settings, so when it does open the scale is wrong, and everything is tiny.
And this is with a distro known to be stable.
Why don’t you explain to me why I have not had any problems running 3 servers for the last 5 years. And why I’ve not had any problems running it on 6 other machines of varying desktops and laptops? Why don’t you explain to me why 90% of web and cloud infrastructure chooses Linux because it is so reliable and stable? I do everything in Linux… everything, including recording in OBS and video editing in Lightworks, no problems.
So tell me, why is it only certain users that seem to have a problem with Linux? Why do you think that is? Because it seems to me the really basic users get on fine with it, and the really advanced users get on fine with it. The only people that have problems are Windows power users that have no fucking clue what they are doing, but try things anyways and break things.
I have to have a computer science degree to install a peice of software… I just wanna double click the installer icon. I don’t want to have to write out some long String in terminal to install software. And sometimes it’s different depending on distro.
Most major distributions come with a software center of some kind. And with Flatpaks, AppImages, and gag Snaps, it pretty much is just click and install these days.
What’s wrong with snaps? I’m giving Linux another go so I’m still learning. I’m trying Ubuntu on an ancient iMac right now but I also have Pop!_OS in a vm on my windows pc to play with. I haven’t installed anything on pop but I noticed Ubuntu had snaps.
Snaps are proprietary to Canonical (Ubuntu). Historically, they were larger, slower to load, and generally slower overall to use With a good SSD and system, I’m not sure that’s the case anymore though.
Ohh. Thanks for that info. Proprietary stuff and forced ads are two of the biggest things pushing me away from windows right now so that’s good to know.
"I don’t want to have to write out some long String in terminal to install software. "
I’m no expert, but isn’t it literally just apt get (name of software) to download and install through terminal?
Am I wrong or is it easier to install software on Linux? The package manager basically figures out everything for you and you don’t need to hunt for an exe all over the Internet.
I wouldn’t force the issue. Some people belong on Windows and I’d rather they don’t use Linux simply because I don’t want them complaining to developers that it doesn’t act like Windows. Linus Tech Tips already caused enough damage by doing exactly that.
There have been “app store” frontends for most distributions since at least 2012, and packagekit has the same CLI on every major distribution.
I have to have a computer science degree to install a peice of software
No you don’t, you can search on wikipedia what a computer science degree actually is.
I feel like it’s pretty obvious I was exaggerating. There’s just extra steps that I’ve always had to take. It’s never been simple for me. A lot of terminal commands in not familiar with.
I think it comes down to my level of proficiency with computers. I’m a photographer and an artist. However, I am above average tech literate but with absolutely no formal training compared to anyone in the computer sciences.
When I use a Mac or PC I am a power user and most people think of me as very tech inclined there. I used terminal or command prompt for commands that I have learned from Google for a specific tasks and can follow most guides and tutorials online, but I can’t come up with strings of commands creatively to fix a problem.
With Linux, there’s all these weird little problems that might be unique to me and looking them up is really difficult and when someone says “oh it’s easy. Use the terminal” as if this incredibly confusing thing that I have zero fundamental knowledge of can solve my problem. A genuinely feel illiterate when I use Linux. I can write sudo though 🤷♂️
I feel like saying “just use terminal” is like telling a kindergarten kid to just use creative writing, algebra and calculus. The fundamentals have not been taught yet, I have no idea what to do.
When I learned Mac or PC, I was shown how to use a mouse, I could read and just clicking around and opening things and reading help files let me intuitively learn on my own what to do. With Linux, this way of learning achieves nothing. Maybe I can turn wifi on and off assuming it works when I install it.
And then when an update breaks everything and I have to mess around and terminal for hours or days between doing actual work, It’s a nightmare. The only Linux thing I’ve managed to keep running for years on end is a Synology. I use it for a bit of backup things but thank goodness the OS updates and app updates all work. Nothing is broken and I barely touch the machine. It just grabs my files from the network and backs them up. You should have seen how shocked I was when I was trying to install something on docker and it took days for me to realize I just type the name of the thing I want and it grabbed it from the web and installed it automatically. I spent way too long trying to figure out how to grab the actual package files and open them like installing something via an MSI file in windows.
I am literally a Linux system admin, I bang on a command line interface for a living.
But I don’t use Linux at home, it’s just so much work. Every single thing is complicated. Last time I really tried in earnest to switch to a full Linux setup I was somewhere in the middle of a quick and easy 24-step process to get my webcam working, compiling the drivers from a modified source - and it was just a moment that broke me. Like, I’ve been working on this for an hour and I know I can do it but this is stuff I don’t even think about with windows.
So I broke down and bought Windows 10. It’s what I was trying to avoid, being a tight ass and didn’t want to buy an new OS.
I just don’t have the patience to troubleshoot every tiny thing like a big endeavor. I can, I just don’t want to. Everything I install, every peripheral I connect, it’s always a big deal getting it to work. Heck with that, not worth the trouble.
And here I use Windows and get into a blind rage within 5 minutes at how much fucking around there is getting devices working properly, and then they just drop out for no apparent reason.
I don’t think anything like this has really been the case for a long time. How long ago was this?
Bullshit… I honestly can’t believe half the comments here… so much conjecture, straight up bullshit, or opinions outdated by like 10+ years. Yours is another… if you are actually familiar with Linux, there is absolutely no way that you would put up with the lack of control and customization, the god-awful workflows, and knowing there are ads and telemetry data being sent from Windows.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head… many of us grew up using Windows and/or Mac. Incremental changes to the OS aren’t a hindrance because of the baseline familiarity with the OS. Without OS familiarity, you’re going to feel like a fish out of water.
I’m getting better with linux, but I still daily drive on a Windows machine and I’m not sure if that will ever change.
The Windows command line is just so far removed from linux/mac terminal. Powershell is the closest Windows has out of the box really, and it’s a poweruser tool exclusively. Not to mention that by default, Powershell comes with aliases for common commandline inputs, so users are still not learning the correct commands and syntax.
This builds an ignorance problem, as you alluded to. I’ve done a lot in android and linux, but not enough where I can hammer away at a linux terminal and do anything but cause damage.
And I don’t think this is a “fault” in linux so to speak, but it’s an issue that needs to be overcome for most users to make the switch from something where the terminal was strictly and “optional” tool for them.
WSL? Windows for GUI programs and WSL for any CLI work. All my servers are Linux but I just ssh into them. Everything runs this way all nice and happy and I never ever touch PowerShell.
My employer 😢
See, I sometimes complain about having to use a Mac (the hardware is fine, the OS, meh), but you have reminded me that it could be worse. Thanks for your suffering.
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This is entirely valid and unfortunate.
Microsoft “community” is a bunch of salarymen who’s job is to try to empty your pocket and boost the company profits at your expenses. Linux community is people helping you for free.
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Quite simple: When using Linux, I tend to play around, try different stuff, switch distros every couple of month… When using Windows or MACOS, I just use it as is and don’t try to break stuff. And while I could use Linux quite easily without breaking it, my inner child prevents me from using it this way…
First time I ever seriously used Linux was for work, back when I was a developer. You’d have to pay me to use it again. I like gaming, but I don’t like wasting my time troubleshooting games. Nor do I enjoy debugging random crashes/black screens in random drivers. Sure, it’s fun, but if I’m gonna work for it, someone somewhere better be signing my overtime slip. Cause I get a few hours free per day, and I’d rather not deal with sigsegv anymore if I can help it.
Not to mention sound. My job as dev included using ALSA for some use cases. I don’t know if you ever had the misfortune to need to do that or how it went for you, but if I ever need to touch that shit again I will scalp Torvalds with a goddamn headphone jack.
I installed windows 11 when I bought my last PC. I figured I’d give it a shot, see if it’s as bad as all my dev friends say it is. You know how many drivers I’ve had to fix to make my games work? Zero. You know how many hours I spent debugging weird issues? Also zero.
There’s a reason windows has a price tag. And part of that reason is that it works better than free stuff. I’m a believer in FOSS, but if you’re a craftsman and you can’t hammer a nail without needing to adjust your hammer every few swings, you should find a hammer that’s not made out of silly putty and dreams.
Years ago I had the opposite issue. The printer driver would rarely work. When I switched to ubuntu for unrelated reasons the printer worked everytime. I suspect that this is very unusual and 99.999% of the time your scenario is more likely. Just wanted to share =).
The issues with games usually arise because people try to run games made for Windows on Linux. Just like you can’t run Linux games on Windows (unless you use WSL, which is just straight up running Linux), you can’t easily run most Windows games on Linux.
You have ro spend some time making things work, I don’t always have the time.
Although I’m using WSL2 with Ubuntu because of the terminal.
I tried installing Zorin amd Pop_OS on my laptop, but the mousepad gestures, bluetooth, speakers, and a bunch of other small things didn’t work.
I just don’t have the time to tinker with it. I have an hour or two of free time a day and it’s hard to convince myself to spend it trying to get linux to work whenever I have windows that just works.
Plus, i found that people just weren’t helpful. Unlike some people, i didn’t come out of the womb knowing how linux works. I did research and fixed what i could, but some things i could’t fix. People were rude, condesending, and just not helpful whenever i would ask a question
Just not worth it for me at this moment
I think the biggest thing here is how insular the linux community can be. I do think that Lemmy’s linux communities are much better about being supportive and welcoming however. Less of a dick measuring contest and more a group of people who are passionate and want to engage with the topic.
I definitely felt that. It’s demotivating to feel like you’re being looked down upon for trying to learn an OS that they themselves promote so much
Software. What’s a computer without software other than an over glorified calculator.
That was my first experience with Linux back in the early 2010’s and pretty much up to recently. However with changes to my workflow and Steam improving and sharing the improvements with Wine. My software library went from web browsing and office software t
99% of games, and all of my business software.
The UX experience needs some work under the hood. There is still a nasty tendency to over rely on the terminal to fix basic problems. (IBT=off for VM to work).
But its close enough that I can almost recommend it to my grandparents… Almost.
Linux is perfect for grandparents or non tech savvy family if you set it up for them. Once it’s up and running, there isn’t much of anything they can do to break it.
That is just a straight up lie.
Not so, it was true for my 86-year-old mom. I installed Linux Mint and put the Chrome browser icon on her desktop, and that was all she used. She only checked e-mails and browsed like Facebook, etc. Every month or so when I went to visit, I’d just run the updater. Never broke and I never really had to do anything. The reason why I put it on, was her PC was getting old, and Windows was getting super slow. So it was win-win. She did not even know it was Linux.
If the only thing you’re doing is turning it on and firing up a browser, I can see that working for just about any device with just about any operating system…
Yeah, but Mint is completely free and doesnt come with much of the software bloat that might be confusing to an older person. It’s a simple user experience by design.
That is why Linux is good for a lot of people.
Not in my experience. They don’t know how to use the terminal and downloading anything shady online won’t install. No auto-updates, no bloat, nothing but what I put there. How would that not work?
Why would anything not work?
