If Israel is under attack, does not have the resources to take these buildings with less collateral damage, and the international community will not send any military aid besides fucking bombs, then what is Israel supposed to do?
Answer: And write this down.
NOTHING.
Then give Palestinians equal rights, jobs, full citizenship. Treat them as brothers. Equals. Treating people like humans isn’t difficult if you try.
Feel free to reference this answer the next time you have that question.
It really is that easy. We choose our emotions. I’m not saying people shouldn’t defend themselves. But violence should be the last option, not the first. There can be a world where Jews and Palestinians coexist. But it has to be chosen, not mandated or forced.
This is the most retarded possible take imaginable. Nobody in the region wants that either.
Hamas and their supporters, of which polling shows is a large majority in the strip right now, is openly calling for the murder of Jews.
You wouldn’t have peace if you magically granted equal rights to the people who refuse to acknowledge the existence of the country that would be granting them those rights, you’d have millions of dead Jews.
You either don’t want to understand that or you just want to see dead Jews.
The thing I hate most about Israel apologists is the way that, for them, history always starts with the latest action against the country, totally ignoring its egregious actions all the way back to when it was founded by genicidal terrorist groups, who then became its official military.
Gee, ya think that maybe the support for Hamas doesn’t stem from its anti-Jewish stance? Maybe there’s something else going on that perhaps the people might be reacting to? Also, who created Hamas?
I think most Israel supporters start the clock in 1948… When 5 Arab Nations attacked them simultaneously. Israel has been under attack ever since, so the claim that it’s the past 75 years is utterly bullshit. Even Hamas has said this has nothing to do with the conditions of the strip and is because they want to wipe out Israel entirely… same thinking as day 1.
Indeed, as always, starting the clock with the blowback, casting Israel as the feckless victim, omitting the Nakba, and everything that happened in 1947 and earlier.
If you’re able to learn about the Nakba, then you’re more than capable of learning about the hundreds of years of pogroms and attacks on Jews in the region. The list for the town of sfat is interesting.
But nah, ignore the 900,000 Jews forced out of their homes in the region and focus on the 200,000 Arabs. Sounds exactly like what we’re seeing all around, the elimination of Jewish history of the region. Good thing the history is documented and ain’t going anywhere.
Yes, I can learn that even the events in Sfat/Safed were part of an escalating cycle of recriminations. So as you helpfully point out, meeting violence with violence has been going on for hundreds of years, and has solved exactly nothing. As I have said in a separate comment chain, it will just continue to generate atrocity and pain until one of the sides—neither of which is righteous, let’s be clear—decides to take responsibility for its past and starts the slow, complicated process of deescalation.
And if your gut reaction to that truth is, “they would never do that,” well, go ahead, turn the crank once more, see how it goes.
Agreed. As long as Arabs hate Jews more than they love their children, this will sadly continue.
Thankfully some Arab Nations like the UAE, have learned this and have normalized relations, creating peace and prosperity for their people. Hopefully the Palestinians learn this lesson quickly, before Hamas sets everything back even farther.
Yes. But I try not to ridicule or look down on them, as many want to do. They are victims of material circumstances. Sometimes they don’t even understand their intentions. I have weaknesses, I acknowledge and live with mine, while others project theirs outward.
Treat them like the “brothers” who’ve repeatedly invaded their land to genocide them? Even if, for the sake of argument, it was a complete moral evil for the British and UN to settle Jews on that land and give them their own nation, that does not excuse the repeated attempts at genocide performed by these “brothers”.
Since you have severe issues with critical thinking and reading comprehension, let me spell this out for you.
Hamas has hostages. This is a fact. This is what reality is today.
Hamas uses hospitals, schools, etc so they have human shields. This is a fact. This is what reality is today.
Hamas launches rockets indiscriminately at Israeli civilians. If Israel did not have the Iron Dome and also launch strikes to take out more rockets before they could be fired, at least as many Israelis would be dead in this conflict than Palestinains. This is a fact. This is what reality is today.
Muslims in the region under the banner of the Palestinian Authority, Arab League, the new Axis, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc have stated they want nothing less than the extinction of Jews in the Middle East. This has been ongoing for nearly a century. This is, yet again, a fact.
So, can you stop being a denier of history and reality and give me an honest fucking answer?
WHAT SHOULD ISRAEL DO ABOUT THE SITUATION THAT IS ONGOING AT THIS MOMENT? WHAT SHOULD ISRAEL DO ABOUT HAMAS USING HUMAN SHIELDS TO-FUCKING-DAY?
You people are fucking morons. This is not that hard, this isn’t difficult at all to understand. If you give me another bullshit fucking response of “nothing, because two wrongs don’t make a right”, then you should never again say that Palestinians are justified in anything they do. Why does “two wrongs don’t make a right” only apply to Jews? Are you an anti-Semite?
This is exactly what I mean. You’re the first person on Lemmy to actually respond to one of my comments asking that question. And yet you still can’t fucking give a genuine answer.
You don’t ask the psychopath stranger with a shotgun who installed in your living room to leave politely. Specially as he continuously moves his relatives armed to the teeth into other different rooms of your house and killing your family one by one. Israel started this beef in the XIX century with their Zionists BS. Now the people who were already living there are gagged, and bound in the basement. But we are supposed to feel bad for the psychopath when the hostage kicks and try to defend themselves. Hamas are terrorist monsters. But the IDF hands aren’t free of blood. There are people on Israeli media calling for the genocide of all Palestinian people, this is just as bad as anti-semite Nazis during WWII. The fact that people can’t see the hypocrisy is part of the problem. Israel could stop the apartheid state today. But they won’t, because genocide is the plan, violence is the plan, division and aggression is the plan.
I won’t hesitate to call for the execution of IDF and Israeli settlers who torture and murder Palestinians. But that’s not what we’re talking about in this thread.
Saying The IDF’s hands “aren’t free of blood” in comparison to Hamas is like saying the Allied bombers in WWII who killed German civilians working in factories “aren’t free of blood” in comparison with the fucking Nazis.
The fact that people can’t see the hypocrisy is part of the problem.
Oh, you are absolutely right. But not in the way you think you are. The Middle East has suffered for centuries under the racism and dictatorship of Islam. Not Judaism. Remind me, what’s the only country in the Middle East where you can safely be gay? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Gaza? The West Bank? Which one is it?
You are fucking hopeless. Please never vote or advocate anything to a politician. Your beliefs are toxic and harmful.
But that’s not what we’re talking about in this thread.
This level of sociopathic compartmentalization is concerning. It is 100% relevant to what we are talking about.
is like saying the Allied bombers in WWII who killed German civilians working in factories “aren’t free of blood” in comparison with the fucking Nazis.
It is, the US dropped two nuclear bombs over japan after firebombing it for a year and killing million of civilians. They do have blood in their hands, there’s no such thing as a righteous or just war. That’s the worst legacy of the mythology of the WWII.
You’re oversimplifying this shit in your head to get off of the idea of someone killing Muslim people. That’s just weird man.
That’s a lot of whataboutism. You can only pack so much into one argument, see. But constantly invoking WW2 nukes into every argument just shows how limited your logic is.
Hamas literally exists because Israel and the Palestinian Authority were brokering a 2 state solution, and Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. As a response to this movement, Hamas seized power in Gaza and canceled elections forever.
When Israel moved to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia, Hamas attacked in October to try to change public opinion of Saudis against Israel.
My answer still stands. If the US took the 4 billion they give to Israel and instead distributed aid to Palestinians, it would dramatically improve their lives and create the material conditions for their society to flourish. Sanction Israel like the world did South Africa to get rid of the apartheid state. The answer is equality and standard of living.
Your problem is framing. If we can only frame solutions through violence, then don’t be surprised when violence continues. If it is framed through the lens of improving the material conditions of the oppressed, it solves the need for violence. Happy, comfortable people don’t resort to violence.
Edit: Something tells me you’re not gonna like my answer, because it doesn’t involve killing Arabs.
I don’t think anyone can safely say how much money they have. This article explains how they get their money, among other things, from funneling charity funds:
The majority of Palestinian men are violent extremists. They don’t need resources, they need rehabilitation. Just like the Nazi and Imperialist Japanese men needed.
At best, you’re a completely ignorant and naïve fool who is completely ignorant of what it’s like in the Middle East. At worst, you know exactly what’s going on and you’re just another propaganda mouth for true hatred.
I don’t hate Arabs. But I do hate Muslims who support the murder of gay men. That I will freely and openly admit. Just how I admit that I hate Nazis. I hope that anyone who has purposefully murdered innocents dies. Whether that’s a member of Hamas or a member of Likud.
You didn’t write the answer down. Just because you don’t like the answer doesn’t mean it’s not the answer. There are many ways to cross a river, but a bridge is still the best option.
I do have it. Which is how I know that I should not “love” people who murder innocents.
Do you know the definition of “murder”? Is it murder if someone jumps in front of your car and you kill them? Is it murder if a police officer tries to shoot a suicide bomber but kills a civilian behind them? Is it murder if a president orders a drone strike but the target is actually a hospital? Is it murder if you bomb a weapons factory of your aggressor and civilians are employed there?
To state it plainly, again. I wholeheartedly support swift justice for Palestinians who have been wronged. Including the execution of any in the Israeli government, IDF, and Israel who are guilty of murder. I also wholeheartedly support swift justice for all other innocents in the Middle East who have been wronged.
But that’s completely besides the original fucking point. Hamas has taken innocents hostage. Hamas launches rockets at innocents. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. The international community is completely unwilling to provide the necessary aid and forces to remove Hamas from power with minimal bloodshed. They have been completely unwilling to enforce any kind of peace in the Middle East for decades. Yet Muslims continue to murder, rape, torture, and enslave on a far larger scale than the worst Israelis.
WHAT. SHOULD. ISRAEL. DO? Just show some love? Grow the fuck up. Give us some actual solutions besides “nothing and love XOXO 😍❤️💛💚💙💜😘😝😜”.
Serious answer? It’s never going to get any better until one side or the other decides to de-escalate, and that’s never going to get any easier. The long history of provocations back and forth will never unwind. Israel, being the one in the position of power, also has a greater responsibility to back off of violence. It’s either that, or continue down the path it is on to ethnic cleansing and genocide. It is on track to be one of history’s darkest ironies that the grandchildren of the people who vowed “never again” will be the people responsible for “again.”
Yeah, that’s a hard, bitter pill to swallow, when one’s instinct is for vengeance. But it’s the truth. Another hard truth is that the humans on the other side are humans. Turning the other cheek for once would utterly shock the entire world, and gain Israel immense support and good will, including from large portions of Palestine.
Is it realistic? No, it’ll never happen. But repeating the cycle of violence hasn’t ever worked, so that’s what they should do.
Not smash into Gaza with a wrecking-ball military response, massacring civilians. Reach out to the Palestinian Authority and moderates in Gaza to deal with the Hamas attack as a law enforcement matter. Negotiate for the release of hostages. Ask for support in this approach from the Arab nations with which it had normalized relations; continue the in-progress normalization of relations with several other nations.
No, the Palestinian Authority is the governing body of the West Bank. It was kicked out of Gaza in 2007 after a conflict between the Islamic Hamas organization, and the secular Fatah party. It would certainly have motive to form an alliance to try to help, in order to re-establish its control of Gaza, and a large portion of the Gazan population would welcome it.
The “right of return” by people forced off of their ancestral land which is now within the borders of the State of Israel has been one of the major sticking points in the conflict, with Israel steadfastly refusing it. If it is not willing to let refugees return to their homes in its own country, then how is it fair to ask other countries to accept large numbers of refugees? There are other forms of help besides accepting refugees.
That’s easy… if Israel cannot exist without acting like a white supremacist settler-colonialist state, then Israel should cease to exist. No different than Apertheid-era South Africa.
That answers your question, white supremacism apologist.
Answer: And write this down.
Then give Palestinians equal rights, jobs, full citizenship. Treat them as brothers. Equals. Treating people like humans isn’t difficult if you try.
Feel free to reference this answer the next time you have that question.
Cute like a kid going “why can’t everyone just be friends?”
Don’t get me wrong, I wish this could work, I wish half of Israel weren’t ready to kill all Arabs and vice versa.
But sadly hate blinds, if not most then a lot of people.
It really is that easy. We choose our emotions. I’m not saying people shouldn’t defend themselves. But violence should be the last option, not the first. There can be a world where Jews and Palestinians coexist. But it has to be chosen, not mandated or forced.
Yeah, but a big part of humanity does not see it that way.
Also the video is hilarious XD
This is the most retarded possible take imaginable. Nobody in the region wants that either.
Hamas and their supporters, of which polling shows is a large majority in the strip right now, is openly calling for the murder of Jews.
You wouldn’t have peace if you magically granted equal rights to the people who refuse to acknowledge the existence of the country that would be granting them those rights, you’d have millions of dead Jews.
You either don’t want to understand that or you just want to see dead Jews.
The thing I hate most about Israel apologists is the way that, for them, history always starts with the latest action against the country, totally ignoring its egregious actions all the way back to when it was founded by genicidal terrorist groups, who then became its official military.
Gee, ya think that maybe the support for Hamas doesn’t stem from its anti-Jewish stance? Maybe there’s something else going on that perhaps the people might be reacting to? Also, who created Hamas?
I think most Israel supporters start the clock in 1948… When 5 Arab Nations attacked them simultaneously. Israel has been under attack ever since, so the claim that it’s the past 75 years is utterly bullshit. Even Hamas has said this has nothing to do with the conditions of the strip and is because they want to wipe out Israel entirely… same thinking as day 1.
Indeed, as always, starting the clock with the blowback, casting Israel as the feckless victim, omitting the Nakba, and everything that happened in 1947 and earlier.
If you’re able to learn about the Nakba, then you’re more than capable of learning about the hundreds of years of pogroms and attacks on Jews in the region. The list for the town of sfat is interesting.
But nah, ignore the 900,000 Jews forced out of their homes in the region and focus on the 200,000 Arabs. Sounds exactly like what we’re seeing all around, the elimination of Jewish history of the region. Good thing the history is documented and ain’t going anywhere.
Yes, I can learn that even the events in Sfat/Safed were part of an escalating cycle of recriminations. So as you helpfully point out, meeting violence with violence has been going on for hundreds of years, and has solved exactly nothing. As I have said in a separate comment chain, it will just continue to generate atrocity and pain until one of the sides—neither of which is righteous, let’s be clear—decides to take responsibility for its past and starts the slow, complicated process of deescalation.
And if your gut reaction to that truth is, “they would never do that,” well, go ahead, turn the crank once more, see how it goes.
Agreed. As long as Arabs hate Jews more than they love their children, this will sadly continue.
Thankfully some Arab Nations like the UAE, have learned this and have normalized relations, creating peace and prosperity for their people. Hopefully the Palestinians learn this lesson quickly, before Hamas sets everything back even farther.
As I expected.
Welcome to first grade, and I want you to know that everyone here is your friend, and you should always be nice.
Well, I’m old. And it hasn’t failed me yet. When it does fail me, is when I meet toxic people with negativity. I generally limit time with them.
So even you, my old friend, admit there are some impressively toxic and shitty people out there.
Yes. But I try not to ridicule or look down on them, as many want to do. They are victims of material circumstances. Sometimes they don’t even understand their intentions. I have weaknesses, I acknowledge and live with mine, while others project theirs outward.
Treat them like the “brothers” who’ve repeatedly invaded their land to genocide them? Even if, for the sake of argument, it was a complete moral evil for the British and UN to settle Jews on that land and give them their own nation, that does not excuse the repeated attempts at genocide performed by these “brothers”.
Since you have severe issues with critical thinking and reading comprehension, let me spell this out for you.
So, can you stop being a denier of history and reality and give me an honest fucking answer?
WHAT SHOULD ISRAEL DO ABOUT THE SITUATION THAT IS ONGOING AT THIS MOMENT? WHAT SHOULD ISRAEL DO ABOUT HAMAS USING HUMAN SHIELDS TO-FUCKING-DAY?
You people are fucking morons. This is not that hard, this isn’t difficult at all to understand. If you give me another bullshit fucking response of “nothing, because two wrongs don’t make a right”, then you should never again say that Palestinians are justified in anything they do. Why does “two wrongs don’t make a right” only apply to Jews? Are you an anti-Semite?
This is exactly what I mean. You’re the first person on Lemmy to actually respond to one of my comments asking that question. And yet you still can’t fucking give a genuine answer.
You don’t ask the psychopath stranger with a shotgun who installed in your living room to leave politely. Specially as he continuously moves his relatives armed to the teeth into other different rooms of your house and killing your family one by one. Israel started this beef in the XIX century with their Zionists BS. Now the people who were already living there are gagged, and bound in the basement. But we are supposed to feel bad for the psychopath when the hostage kicks and try to defend themselves. Hamas are terrorist monsters. But the IDF hands aren’t free of blood. There are people on Israeli media calling for the genocide of all Palestinian people, this is just as bad as anti-semite Nazis during WWII. The fact that people can’t see the hypocrisy is part of the problem. Israel could stop the apartheid state today. But they won’t, because genocide is the plan, violence is the plan, division and aggression is the plan.
You mean these psychopath strangers? The ones who try to genocide you during your holiest day?
I won’t hesitate to call for the execution of IDF and Israeli settlers who torture and murder Palestinians. But that’s not what we’re talking about in this thread.
Saying The IDF’s hands “aren’t free of blood” in comparison to Hamas is like saying the Allied bombers in WWII who killed German civilians working in factories “aren’t free of blood” in comparison with the fucking Nazis.
Oh, you are absolutely right. But not in the way you think you are. The Middle East has suffered for centuries under the racism and dictatorship of Islam. Not Judaism. Remind me, what’s the only country in the Middle East where you can safely be gay? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Gaza? The West Bank? Which one is it?
You are fucking hopeless. Please never vote or advocate anything to a politician. Your beliefs are toxic and harmful.
This level of sociopathic compartmentalization is concerning. It is 100% relevant to what we are talking about.
It is, the US dropped two nuclear bombs over japan after firebombing it for a year and killing million of civilians. They do have blood in their hands, there’s no such thing as a righteous or just war. That’s the worst legacy of the mythology of the WWII.
You’re oversimplifying this shit in your head to get off of the idea of someone killing Muslim people. That’s just weird man.
That was a good read/ explanation and funny. Thanks for making me laugh.
That’s a lot of whataboutism. You can only pack so much into one argument, see. But constantly invoking WW2 nukes into every argument just shows how limited your logic is.
Lol
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Hamas literally exists because Israel and the Palestinian Authority were brokering a 2 state solution, and Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. As a response to this movement, Hamas seized power in Gaza and canceled elections forever.
When Israel moved to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia, Hamas attacked in October to try to change public opinion of Saudis against Israel.
You’ve got your blame precisely backwards.
My answer still stands. If the US took the 4 billion they give to Israel and instead distributed aid to Palestinians, it would dramatically improve their lives and create the material conditions for their society to flourish. Sanction Israel like the world did South Africa to get rid of the apartheid state. The answer is equality and standard of living.
Edit: Something tells me you’re not gonna like my answer, because it doesn’t involve killing Arabs.
Brotha… Hamas leader’s net worth just crossed 5B 😂
Source?
I don’t think anyone can safely say how much money they have. This article explains how they get their money, among other things, from funneling charity funds:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-cash-to-crypto-global-finance-maze-israels-sights-2023-10-16/
Thanks. That money should be seized and given back to the people. Any future aid should be administered with oversight. It can be done.
No, your answer does not “still stand”. Yet again, you completely ignore reality and history. You know what happens when Palestinians are given “material conditions for their society to flourish”? They fucking murder your leaders and attempt to overthrow your country and impose their beliefs on you.
The majority of Palestinian men are violent extremists. They don’t need resources, they need rehabilitation. Just like the Nazi and Imperialist Japanese men needed.
At best, you’re a completely ignorant and naïve fool who is completely ignorant of what it’s like in the Middle East. At worst, you know exactly what’s going on and you’re just another propaganda mouth for true hatred.
I don’t hate Arabs. But I do hate Muslims who support the murder of gay men. That I will freely and openly admit. Just how I admit that I hate Nazis. I hope that anyone who has purposefully murdered innocents dies. Whether that’s a member of Hamas or a member of Likud.
That’s because the Palestinians were trying to de-Nazify Jordan.
Give them a break!
Totes justified. Sheesh.
You didn’t write the answer down. Just because you don’t like the answer doesn’t mean it’s not the answer. There are many ways to cross a river, but a bridge is still the best option.
What the fuck kind of drugs are you on?
Love and empathy. You should try it. Best high you’ll ever get.
I do have it. Which is how I know that I should not “love” people who murder innocents.
Do you know the definition of “murder”? Is it murder if someone jumps in front of your car and you kill them? Is it murder if a police officer tries to shoot a suicide bomber but kills a civilian behind them? Is it murder if a president orders a drone strike but the target is actually a hospital? Is it murder if you bomb a weapons factory of your aggressor and civilians are employed there?
To state it plainly, again. I wholeheartedly support swift justice for Palestinians who have been wronged. Including the execution of any in the Israeli government, IDF, and Israel who are guilty of murder. I also wholeheartedly support swift justice for all other innocents in the Middle East who have been wronged.
But that’s completely besides the original fucking point. Hamas has taken innocents hostage. Hamas launches rockets at innocents. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. The international community is completely unwilling to provide the necessary aid and forces to remove Hamas from power with minimal bloodshed. They have been completely unwilling to enforce any kind of peace in the Middle East for decades. Yet Muslims continue to murder, rape, torture, and enslave on a far larger scale than the worst Israelis.
WHAT. SHOULD. ISRAEL. DO? Just show some love? Grow the fuck up. Give us some actual solutions besides “nothing and love XOXO 😍❤️💛💚💙💜😘😝😜”.
Then you don’t really have empathy.
Martin Luther King, Jr. and Ghandi found the answer. It is peace through love. I still highly suggest you write it down.
Serious answer? It’s never going to get any better until one side or the other decides to de-escalate, and that’s never going to get any easier. The long history of provocations back and forth will never unwind. Israel, being the one in the position of power, also has a greater responsibility to back off of violence. It’s either that, or continue down the path it is on to ethnic cleansing and genocide. It is on track to be one of history’s darkest ironies that the grandchildren of the people who vowed “never again” will be the people responsible for “again.”
Yeah, that’s a hard, bitter pill to swallow, when one’s instinct is for vengeance. But it’s the truth. Another hard truth is that the humans on the other side are humans. Turning the other cheek for once would utterly shock the entire world, and gain Israel immense support and good will, including from large portions of Palestine.
Is it realistic? No, it’ll never happen. But repeating the cycle of violence hasn’t ever worked, so that’s what they should do.
Turning the other cheek means what exactly in this context?
Not smash into Gaza with a wrecking-ball military response, massacring civilians. Reach out to the Palestinian Authority and moderates in Gaza to deal with the Hamas attack as a law enforcement matter. Negotiate for the release of hostages. Ask for support in this approach from the Arab nations with which it had normalized relations; continue the in-progress normalization of relations with several other nations.
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No, the Palestinian Authority is the governing body of the West Bank. It was kicked out of Gaza in 2007 after a conflict between the Islamic Hamas organization, and the secular Fatah party. It would certainly have motive to form an alliance to try to help, in order to re-establish its control of Gaza, and a large portion of the Gazan population would welcome it.
The “right of return” by people forced off of their ancestral land which is now within the borders of the State of Israel has been one of the major sticking points in the conflict, with Israel steadfastly refusing it. If it is not willing to let refugees return to their homes in its own country, then how is it fair to ask other countries to accept large numbers of refugees? There are other forms of help besides accepting refugees.
These people are fucking morons. This is unbelievable. WTF. They’re the kind of idiot who’s supporting bin Laden right now.
That’s easy… if Israel cannot exist without acting like a white supremacist settler-colonialist state, then Israel should cease to exist. No different than Apertheid-era South Africa.
That answers your question, white supremacism apologist.