• aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    Very interesting how all those “pretend socialists” only exist in the third world, and all the “real socialists” existin the west. Yet all the successful revolutions have been done in the third world by “pretend socialists”, and the so called “real socialists” in the west have accomplished nothing. Their biggest success of the “real socialists” in the west being capitalist welfare states or social democracies that rely on old school imperial relationships to fund their welfare in a select few areas.

    No Eurocentrism present to this line of thought here at all…

    What do you think of Nelson Mandela OP? He was a very good leader, right? You know that he considered Cuba an ally and supported their revolution as Cuba sent troops to fight against the apartheid government in the border wars, took inspiration from Mao and called the Chinese revolution a miracle, thanked the Soviets for giving unending support in the fight against apartheid while receiving the a Lenin Peace Prize? So is Nelson Mandela now a fascist according to your meme?

  • somename [she/her]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    Cuba is a beacon of progress and humanity in the Americas. Fidel Castro was a hero. Also a pro at dodging the CIA’s kill squads.

  • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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    10 months ago

    I agree. Fascist countries like Denmark, Germany and Canada often get called “socialist” and they have been disastrous for the reputation of socialism.

  • Annakah69 [she/her]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    You have a lifetime of anti communist propaganda to overcome. You’re close, take the last step and realize you’ve been lied to about AES countries. No place is a utopia, but those countries are lights in the dark.

  • JamesConeZone [they/them]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    The pure (libertarian) socialists’ ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.

    • ShranTheWaterPoloFan@startrek.website
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      10 months ago

      Cuba is an interesting one.

      The problems with Cuba are political prisoners and their handling of AIDS. And a huge chunk of issues intertwined with the trade embargo.

      As with all nations, it could be better, but it’s far from the worst nation in the world.

        • ShranTheWaterPoloFan@startrek.website
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          10 months ago

          Each year around a 100,000 Cubans are willing to risk their lives for a chance to live in the US.

          The US is far from perfect, but people don’t get on rafts hoping to make it to Cuba.

            • ShranTheWaterPoloFan@startrek.website
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              10 months ago

              Notice how when confronted with facts the hexbear has no real argument but assumes being obnoxious is the same as making a coherent argument.

              Cuban refugees carry a higher level of risk than other countries, and yet they still come. Ignoring facts doesn’t make a country better. You wouldn’t let a fact like that slide from the US. Hexbears lack intellectual honesty.

                • ShranTheWaterPoloFan@startrek.website
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                  10 months ago

                  No, it’s that saying one place is worse doesn’t make it so.

                  Human development index and quality of life studies put the US ahead of Cuba. Cuba isn’t a hellhole that many people make it out to be, but that doesn’t automatically make it better than the US.

                  Cuba has better healthcare and lower cost of living, but Americans aren’t on rafts to Cuba.

                  One of the problems with enacting good and lasting change in the western world is that life is pretty darn good on the whole. It could be a lot better, but just shouting that the US is bad is mindless propagada. Be better than that.

    • ImFresh3x@sh.itjust.works
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      10 months ago

      Cuba is failure but you could easily argue that outside forces made that happen, and it least it’s not a giga corporatocracy calling itself communist like China is. China feels like late stage ultra capitalism with shortcuts. Yay corporations are married to the government…Pretty much where the US is headed.

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        10 months ago

        Why is Cuba a failure in your eyes? It seems to be doing better than other countries in the region. It has a higher life expectancy than the US even, and standards of living have risen dramatically since the revolution.

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          10 months ago

          Have you ver been to Cuba? It’s worse than any other country I’ve been to in the Caribbean in terms of standard of living/HDI with way more of the authoritarian garbage you weirdos seem to like.

          Move there. Send me a pic of your house. I will visit.

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            10 months ago

            You’re actually just wrong lol. Cuba has a larger HDI than most countries in the region. And that’s while being economically strangled by the United States.

            And what’s this authoritarianism you’re talking about with Cuba? It’s a democracy. And it’s got better rights for minorities than the United States.

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        10 months ago

        Wtf does “Cuba if failure” mean? What a bizarre thing to say.

        Also telling that you spent 95 percent of a comment that was supposed to be about Cuba ranting about China.

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    10 months ago

    us-foreign-policy

    Westerners deciding who’s doing real socialism or not. Westerners expressing their most vile sentiment for foreign countries rather than their own imperialism. Westerners praising the words of their own imperialist intelligence agencies. Westerners unironically praising their own nations for civil liberties like the freedom of fascists to assemble, freedom of racists to express themselves, freedom of parents to own their children, and freedom of school districts to continue racial segregation. Westerners praising imperialist nations like Norway as socialist while using bold language like fascism to describe places under that same exact threat of imperialism, like Cuba and Vietnam.

    Westerners claiming foreign governments are merely pretending to be socialist, while claiming unorganized misinformed chauvinistic westerners are the true heirs to socialism, despite all they do is post online and complain about foreign nations.

    Westerners praising anarchist movements from 100 years ago despite having no common cause with those movements, no connection to the circumstances within them, and probably no actual admiration of them. Westerners praising a bastardized, sectarian, perverse form of anarchism rather than attempting unity with organizations in their areas. Westerners refusing to speak with actual anarchists in their area, who by and large don’t give a shit and just want to hand out food or help at shelters. If Buenaventura Durruti were alive today he’d be regarded with scorn by western chauvinists.

    Westerners continuing to bring up Trotsky of all people, who wasn’t relevant to world affairs for the last 15 years of his life and certainly not the past 80 years. Westerners not reading a single word of Trotsky’s work, westerners focusing entirely on Trotsky’s feud with Stalin, westerners not knowing that Trotsky was a literal military commander. Westerners calling themselves Trotskyists in 2023 for some reason. Westerners deciding they have a feud with Joseph Stalin, a man who died in 1953.

    Westerners attempting to praise their own socialist leadership, who happen to be a scattered group of imperialist-aligned social democrats, Twitch streamers, and actual antisemitic grifters such as in the case of Caleb Maupin.

    • PatFusty@lemm.ee
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      10 months ago

      Its hard to challenge your opinions when you gish gallup 500 talking points

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          I dont want to be a victim of hexbear road rage thanks. You guys just vomit out material in hopes that you can string it together to form a cogent argument. Then you come back smug as ever asking why i didnt respond to the 10k talking points as if I was a human encyclopedia.

          • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            How would I distinguish you, based only on your reply, from someone who took one look at two whole paragraphs and decided you weren’t going to read that but had to keep arguing no matter what and spewed out some sour grape nonsense?

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                10 months ago

                Why did you bother learning the phrase “gish gallop” but not how to respond to it. Isn’t that the whole point of studying this shit?

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                10 months ago

                How should we frame our arguments in response to a meme that paints every single prominent socialist and socialist country as fascist without addressing each one?
                Really the burden of proof should be on the one making the claim, shouldn’t it?

                • Apollo@sh.itjust.works
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                  10 months ago

                  People confuse facism and authoritarianism all the time, and people respond to this as if they’ve never figured this out.

                  So instead of anything productive these threads churn out:

                  Omg communist countries are fascist!

                  actually no socialist!

                  lol oppression

                  Vs

                  hey why do so many socialist states end up being super authoritarian?

                  hey yeah thats a huge problem, but lets ignore it because west bad

                • PatFusty@lemm.ee
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                  10 months ago

                  You dont need to address each one. Pick one. I dont need proof to see that its too much information

              • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                10 months ago

                How do you feel about essays and books in general?

                Their comment was 337 words long. According to google the average reader can do 238 words in a minute. 90 seconds.

                • PatFusty@lemm.ee
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                  10 months ago

                  I dont read very good. Im just a brown person from Guatemala sitting in an internet cafe. I dont want paid 30 quetzales to read shit. I want funny hahas

      • raven [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        We’re talking about 6 countries and at least 5 people in the first place, and that’s only the ones named. Sorry, reality is complicated like that.

      • BigNote@lemm.ee
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        10 months ago

        That’s precisely the point. These guys have a toolbox of fallacious arguments and techniques that they regularly trot out. The Gish gallop is one of them. Another, that you see being put to wide use in this thread, is redefining words and terms to fit their narrative.

  • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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    Excerpt from Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds

    Some leftists and others fall back on the old stereotype of power hungry Reds who pursue power for powers sake without regard for actual social goals. If true, one wonders why, in country after country, these Reds side with the poor and powerless often at great risk and sacrifice to themselves, rather than reaping the rewards that come with serving the well-placed.

    For decades, many left-leaning writers and speakers in the United States have felt obliged to establish their credibility by indulging in anticommunist and anti-Soviet genuflection, seemingly unable to give a talk or write an article or book review on whatever political subject without injecting some anti-Red sideswipe. The intent was, and still is, to distance themselves from the Marxist-Leninist Left.

    Adam Hochschild, a liberal writer and publisher, warned those on the Left who might be lackadaisical about condemning existing communist societies that they “weaken their credibility” (Guardian, 5/23/84). In other words, to be credible opponents of the cold war, we first had to join in cold war condemnations of communist societies. Ronald Radosh urged that the peace movement purge itself of communists so that it not be accused of being communist (Guardian, 3/16/83). If I understand Radosh: To save ourselves from anticommunist witchhunts, we should ourselves become witchhunters.

    Purging the Left of communists became a longstanding practice, having injurious effects on various progressive causes. For instance, in 1949 some twelve unions were ousted from the CIO because they had Reds in their leadership. The purge reduced CIO membership by some 1.7 million and seriously weakened its recruitment drives and political clout. In the late 1940s, to avoid being “smeared” as Reds, Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), a supposedly progressive group, became one of the most vocally anticommunist organizations.

    The strategy did not work. ADA and others on the Left were still attacked for being communist or soft on communism by those on the Right. Then and now, many on the Left have failed to realize that those who fight for social change on behalf of the less-privileged elements of society will be Red-baited by conservative elites whether they are communists or not. For ruling interests, it makes little difference whether their wealth and power is challenged by “communist subversives” or “loyal American liberals.” All are lumped together as more or less equally abhorrent.

    Even when attacking the Right, left critics cannot pass up an opportunity to flash their anticommunist credentials. So Mark Green writes in a criticism of President Ronald Reagan that “when presented with a situation that challenges his conservative catechism, like an unyielding Marxist-Leninist, [Reagan] will change not his mind but the facts.” While professing a dedication to fighting dogmatism “both of the Right and Left,” individuals who perform such de rigueur genuflections reinforce the anticommunist dogma. Red-baiting leftists contributed their share to the climate of hostility that has given U.S. leaders such a free hand in waging hot and cold wars against communist countries and which even today makes a progressive or even liberal agenda difficult to promote.

    A prototypic Red-basher who pretended to be on the Left was George Orwell. In the middle of World War II, as the Soviet Union was fighting for its life against the Nazi invaders at Stalingrad, Orwell announced that a “willingness to criticize Russia and Stalin is the test of intellectual honesty. It is the only thing that from a literary intellectual’s point of view is really dangerous” (Monthly Review, 5/83). Safely ensconced within a virulently anticommunist society, Orwell (with Orwellian doublethink) characterized the condemnation of communism as a lonely courageous act of defiance. Today, his ideological progeny are still at it, offering themselves as intrepid left critics of the Left, waging a valiant struggle against imaginary Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist hordes.

    Sorely lacking within the U.S. Left is any rational evaluation of the Soviet Union, a nation that endured a protracted civil war and a multinational foreign invasion in the very first years of its existence, and that two decades later threw back and destroyed the Nazi beast at enormous cost to itself. In the three decades after the Bolshevik revolution, the Soviets made industrial advances equal to what capitalism took a century to accomplish—while feeding and schooling their children rather than working them fourteen hours a day as capitalist industrialists did and still do in many parts of the world. And the Soviet Union, along with Bulgaria, the German Democratic Republic, and Cuba, provided vital assistance to national liberation movements in countries around the world, including Nelson Mandela’s African National Congress in South Africa.

    Left anticommunists remained studiously unimpressed by the dramatic gains won by masses of previously impoverished people under communism. Some were even scornful of such accomplishments. I recall how in Burlington Vermont, in 1971, the noted anticommunist anarchist, Murray Bookchin, derisively referred to my concern for “the poor little children who got fed under communism” (his words).

    Those of us who refused to join in the Soviet bashing were branded by left anticommunists as “Soviet apologists” and “Stalinists,” even if we disliked Stalin and his autocratic system of rule and believed there were things seriously wrong with existing Soviet society. Our real sin was that unlike many on the Left we refused to uncritically swallow U.S. media propaganda about communist societies. Instead, we maintained that, aside from the well-publicized deficiencies and injustices, there were positive features about existing communist systems that were worth preserving, that improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people in meaningful and humanizing ways. This claim had a decidedly unsettling effect on left anticommunists who themselves could not utter a positive word about any communist society (except possibly Cuba) and could not lend a tolerant or even courteous ear to anyone who did.

    Saturated by anticommunist orthodoxy, most U.S. leftists have practiced a left McCarthyism against people who did have something positive to say about existing communism, excluding them from participation in conferences, advisory boards, political endorsements, and left publications. Like conservatives, left anticommunists tolerated nothing less than a blanket condemnation of the Soviet Union as a Stalinist monstrosity and a Leninist moral aberration.

    • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      10 months ago

      Related excerpt:

      The pure (libertarian) socialists’ ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.

      • InappropriateEmote [comrade/them, undecided]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        Gonna paste a comment I made a couple weeks ago. Seems relevant again, both because of the accusation levied against hexbears and also because Parenti.

        Oh a hexbear. … You lot only have overly simplistic takes.

        When we respond to blatant ignorance with carefully chosen wording, backing up our position with citations and links, and calmly explaining the nuance of complex geopolitical realities, we get accused of “always throwing walls of text at people.” When we answer that same ignorance with short and pithy responses, we “only have simplistic takes.”

        parenti-hands

        There’s no winning with you simple-minded dronies, but I guess there never is when one side can just make shit up that fits their vibes-based outlook on the world.

        • PatFusty@lemm.ee
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          10 months ago

          Gonna paste a comment i made yesterday. Seems relevant again, both because of the accusation levied against deez nuts and also because why not.

          PIGPOOPBALLS

    • PatFusty@lemm.ee
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      10 months ago

      TLDR

      Do you guys actually write this shit out or are you ctrl + v from some source? Every time i see hexbears they write up a whole journal article as a comment that most likely nobody is going to read.

      • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        …I said “Excerpt from Michael Parenti’s Blackshirts and Reds,” because it’s, uhh, an excerpt from Michael Parenti’s Blackshirts and Reds.

        I copied it from a pdf of the book I cited because I found it relevant. Really, if you want to fully understand how fascism and communism are different and not comparable, you should read the whole book. I know, I probably sound like a crazy person for suggesting that people read a whole entire book to better understand politics instead of going off vibes, but that’s just how I roll I guess.

      • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        most likely nobody is going to read

        Being too lazy and uncurious to read a handful of paragraphs is not something to be proud of

        • PatFusty@lemm.ee
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          10 months ago

          Sorry i am dumb and cant read good. You see I grew up in the streets of Zacapa where a poor little brown child like myself cant get a fine white privileged education like yourself. You are going to have lower the IQ of this conversation for me so I can understand

      • raven [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        Are you asking if she copied and pasted an excerpt from a book? Yes, of course she did. Lol

        Edit: If I took a video of myself retyping it or writing it by hand, would you read it then? I’ll do it.

      • figaro@lemdro.id
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        10 months ago

        I think a part of good, honest discourse is recognizing and respecting the time of the person you are talking with.

        If you are going to respond with 11 paragraphs quoted from a book, you should preempt it by saying something to diffuse it. Something like, “oh man, this is super long but actually quite beneficial. I wrote a tldr though at the end in case you don’t have time to read the whole thing.”

        I use this site while I’m at work. I literally don’t have time to read all of that lol.

        • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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          10 months ago

          That’s why I put it behind a spoiler to avoid clogging up the thread.

          I put in the time of reading the book in the first place, then I remembered a relevant bit so I went back and looked through the book to try to find it, read through it again to make sure it was actually relevant, edited it because it was from a pdf and had wierd line breaks, and considered which parts were relevant to include and whether I should omit some of the examples. I cited that book not only because it expressed what I wanted to say, but also because it’s written in a modern style that’s easier to read than many socialist works.

          I guess I’m just used to an environment on Hexbear where people are more receptive towards reading relevant theory and some of us actually read not just posts and excerpts, but whole entire books. Maybe I should’ve just posted Pig Poop Balls instead.

          • figaro@lemdro.id
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            10 months ago

            I don’t doubt that you were doing it in good faith, but the execution was still in such a way that it is off-putting.

              • figaro@lemdro.id
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                10 months ago

                Say what you want, 11 paragraphs is objectively longer than what most people want to read on social media. 11 paragraphs is just annoying and unproductive.

                You can see I’m right because literally everyone who isn’t a hexbear is like wtf is this. It is bad communication.

            • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              You don’t have to click the spoiler. It’s literally one line you can easily scroll past, but some people who have more time might find it interesting.

              Anyway it’s a response to a pretty low-effort, unoriginal meme, the whole “proportional time” thing cuts both ways. I’ve added more to making these comments a meaningful, intelligent dialogue than OP did.

        • raven [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          10 months ago

          On Hexbear we regularly bully each other into reading entire books when someone has a bad take. This is mild.

          11 paragraphs is like one single page, maybe two.

            • raven [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              It would be good for you too. I see less whining about having to read two pages in 5th grade classrooms.

              But in fact you don’t have to! No one is forcing you to engage.